Discussion on Game ..........

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What exactly is "gameness"?
[The following is an exchange that occured on bulldog-l between
Scott Bradwell and Wilf LeBlanc. The passages offset with ">"'s
are questions posed by Wilf.]

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/breeds/apbt/part2/

I think it sums up in one place a lot of the discussion I've seen here in many different posts, I found it easy to read from a laymans perspective.

 

But it is also valued by APBT owners who would never
think of fighting their dogs. It is manifested in the can-do attitude
of pit bulls toward any type of challenge, whether agility competitions,
climbing up

So this means that gameness can be determined in other activities besides in the pit? Because from what I understand gameness can only be determined in the pit, since that is illegal there is no definite way to determine gameness but yet people still own game dogs? I'm confused.

 

That's a good post!

Can you tell gameness by the way they play with other dogs?

 

N o

 

Here is this mans perspective regarding your question:

Just because a game disposition will aid a dog in excelling at many
different activities--such as agility competition, flyball races,
tree-climbing, etc.--doesn't mean that these activities are
sufficient tests for gameness. Gameness is multi-dimensional; the
above activities do not stress all of these dimensions simultaneously
to their extreme limits . Gameness is, in positive terms, a happy
eagerness to pursue a challenge; but it is also, in negative terms,
the stubborn refusal to heed the cries of the nervous system to stop
struggling and and to flee the situation that is causing so much pain.
None of the activities above can fully assess this second dimension.
Unfortunately,the only activity that really tests the full extent of a
dog's gameness is pit contests. It's a pity that this is the case.
Personally, I don't much like the idea of dog fighting, especially
when money is involved and takes precedence over the well-being of
the dogs. If I knew of another method--say, a DNA test--which could
determine gameness, I'd be happily promoting that method right now.
But genetic research has a long way to go before it could provide such
a test. And with slightly more imporant concerns, such as preventing
cancer, I don't expect many research dollars to flow into DNA game
-testing. As a result, I'm left in the rather hypocritical position
of celebrating a canine virtue that is only made possible by a human
vice. So be it. I still prefer game dogs.

 

Okay, I understand that. I am not going to pit my dog to determine gameness, though. Is there a way to determine by how many things they excel at? Like if they became a champion in weight pull, fly ball, obediance and many other activities? It wouldn't be testing it at the same time but it would still be testing the dog.

 

I think they are more tests of talent, strength, versatility rather than all the dimensions of gameness (IMHO). And I don't think it really matters unless your intention is to breed your dog........in which case knowing the DEGREE of game in your dog is essential to making the appropriate decision. The goal being to MAXIMIZE the chances of passing the intrinsic trait of game to the next generation even stronger than was present in the parents.

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Not that I am going to breed my dogs but are you saying not to breed unless they have proven themselves in the game.

 

That's how many feel.

 

can i say something?

if a dog can only be proven game in the pit what is there to discuss?
an even moderatly driven APBT, can do great at any one of the activities mentioned and still be a cur in that sense of the word. Hell dogs that arent APBTs, arent even from a breed of dog that has ever been game tested can do these activities and accel... how can they test or even utiltize the trait of gameness? "Aggression" and drive can get any dog into an activity and since most are short spanned activities it is not considered a test of a dogs gameness... if that was the case the dogmen would have utilized those tactics instead of risking jail time to keep the old methods alive. or so one would think.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but those who own true game-bred dogs see their dogs every day, see their actions, and know their behavior pretty well. I'd say there is at lease a bit of an inkling there as to whether the dog is game or not.

Also, I feel safe around my dogs - who are supposed to be game-bred but of course I'm not testing it - in knowing that they do not have any intentions on standing up to their owners or turning on them when they are in pain. There are many important aspects of a game dog besides their will to never give up in a fight. I think these aspects should shine more over on the topic of gameness. It seems too many are associating gameness with fighting only.

After researching gameness over a period of time, I know I wouldn't want any other type of dog besides a game bread APBT - and I have NO intentions on fighting or any other crap like that. It's the traits of the dog that stand out to me. You'll see me -an 87 year old lady someday- walkin' my APBT down the street (or it walking me)... Ha, wouldn't that be a sight!

 

I think I am happy to know, chances are, my game bred APBT is more game than any other breed of dog by sheer genetics, thus ensuring the other chracteristics of the APBT breed that make me feel good to have such a wonderful dog. But I share in the angst that the dog men and women must feel about what is to be done to preserve this wonderful breed, who is going to continue to keep the breed pure and to standard so someday I can own another wonderful game bred Pet Bull????????????????

 

I think I got it. What I don't understand is how people who want to breed game bred dogs without testing their dogs are to stand in the game world? I don't believe in dog fighting. I love Pits because they have unsurpassed loyalty and the will to keep going no matter what they are doing and no matter what happens along the way.

 

Do you think, that will all of the love for game-bred APBTs, that someday, somehow, somebody will figure out a way to test these dogs - that isn't fighting? As of now, people say, it's the only way. But do you think it is possible?

 

And it is my opinion open mindedness and thourough understanding is required here, so the experts may continue to do what is necessary for the benefit of us all.

 

Excellent post

 

but doesnt that mean the dogs are amstaffs? Your not testing the dogs to ensure gameness and therefore arent breeding them to be game... and therfore you are breeding for something else. and like was said by the majority here... breeding for anything other than gameness makes the dog an amstaff.

 

Great topic !! I love to learn every day on this board ! I cannot stop reading ! Thank you all !!!! I'm so happy to have discovered this forum !

 

IMHO I don't believe so. There is a definate difference in the overall appearance between APBT's & Amstaff's. Sure, there are some that favor one side more than the other. But an un-tested dog is just that. Untested. It does'nt take anything away from what it is. There are working kennels who breed strictly for mouth, or ability. There are kennels who breed strictly for conformationally sound dogs. They are all APBT's. The difference is if you plan on working the dog & you live in a country where you're able to see the sporting aspect of the breed, then the necessity of testing your charges is imperative otherwise your wasting years of time & a lot of money wondering why your pretty-papered dogs are'nt working out for you. No dog is a cur until it quits. APBT is just a breed title like Pointer, Coonhound, etc.

 

Not sure I understand but Amstaffs & APBT's are two completely different breeds no mater what either one is bred for.