"bluff?"

Re: "bluff?"

Who said my dogs are gotti or edge?
assuming? you know what they say about assuming things?
You make an ASS of U and ME, LOL I love that saying.
but seriously you do realize that there are other bloodlines out there that produce blue dogs right? pretty much any line out there can throw blue dogs, if its not a rednosed line, and even then if the trait is introduced a red dog can throw blue pups....

One of my females is Gaff bred; she is blue but her sire nor her dam were, another is Ruffian bred (woodsforest); she is red, but due to her sire she does carry the trait to throw a blue, and my male is greyline (which precedes that gotti-line garbage); he is Blue his sire and dam were both blue... was he bred for color... I cant really say, but the combination of Dela Cruz, Greyline and Butthead blood all worked together and threw me the best dog I have ever owned of any color. So he could be any color and I would love him the same.

I have my personal issues with RE blood, but this isnt the board to discuss it on.

 

Re: "bluff?"

My name is Dawn and I am new to this website, can someone help me?

ROFL????

Diesel- I'm glad you agree that they should be registered as a different breed. But even if they were they would be labeled (just like American Bulldogs and Staffies) under BSL as Pit Bulls. Maybe if they were we would have some hardcore evidence on whether or not game dogs, Bluffs or Pet Bulls are the reason for all this propaganda.

BTW When you see a breed of dog such as a Standard Poodle, do they not look like what they look like 50 years ago? When they were used for their original purpose? How bout Cocker Spaniels? When they started breeding them for color they made seperate registries. Labradors still look mostly the same, even though there is a difference in show and field, it isn't that major to where someone who didn't really know the breed would call them any different. If a dog is used for work or show it should fit the standard. It's the same with most breeds when they bred outside the standard they gave them a new registry.
.

 

Re: "bluff?"

I'm new to the forum and the info provided has been nothing but helpful.

Mia,

From what I'm reading your saying 'people shouldn't breed for color/size, but they should breed true to the original standards (gameness, temperment, etc), otherwise they are not apbt.'

Diesel is saying 'a true test of gameness is fighting dogs and fighting dogs is illegal and I don't want to break the law, so how should people breed apbt's without breaking the law? How do you personaly breed apbt's without breaking the law because based on what your saying, anyone who does not breed using the old standards, are not creating apbt's, but American Staffordshires.'

This basically what I summarized from these 36+ pages, someone can tell me if I'm way off here. This post was more me trying to summarize both arguments and learn. Good debate and thanks for the info.

 

Re: "bluff?"

From what I gather Mia is saying that only dogs that excel GREATLY at one or several things should be bred. Preserving the standard so that the dog COULD (if it was legal) do it's original purpose.

 

Re: "bluff?"

Very good read
http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?p=105464#post105464

 

Re: "bluff?"

i know what gameness is,,,dude protective tendencies just a perk of this breed,,,we wasn't having a discussion on gameness we were discussing a biting pitbull,,so i didn't say u didn't have a clue so don't say i don't,,,gameness and protective biters are to differnt subjects,so i'm suppose to cull a dog that will bite somone creepin around my property in the middle of the night,,,yeah right,,,u can ,,but i,m not,,,around here anyone that comes around knows i have them and if they wanted to come to the door ,,they wouldn't be bothered,,but go snoopin and suffer the conciequnce,,,,i don,t own toy poodles,they may act like it most of the time but still they are pitbulls,,dealin with them now for alittle over 20 years ,i know what they are and what they a capable of,,, but still learning everyday,,everyone of them is diffferent and everyone of them has they,re better quailties,, this is a good discussion and i stilll don'tm think the breed should change, but i was just stating that it has over the years ,,,on paper,,,,

 

Re: "bluff?"

Protective tendencies are not a perk of this breed. I have no problem with a dog that protects its owner when he is in direct physical danger. However, an APBT should not be attacking anyone because they are snooping around the house at night. THIS IS NOT A GUARDIAN BREED. If you need a guard dog, get a dog that is bred for it. It is simple.

 

Re: "bluff?"

so if your pitbull bite a guy in your backyard in the middle of the night steal your families things you,d cull it reguardless???


i just want this question answered and i,m out

 

Re: "bluff?"

Thats right. Regardless, if a person stole something or not, the dog bit someone. The dog bit the man because it was in its space. That is a man biter and I would cull it in an instant. Just because it attacked someone and saved my property, it does not make it OK to breed a man biter and ruin my yard and contribute to the downfall of the breed.

 

Re: "bluff?"

I would...
Outward human aggression is nothing but trouble in this breed. This is a breed of dog that is far too powerful and driven for human aggression to be tolerated.
I would put the dog down... I wouldnt take the chance of putting in anyone elses hands as its too big a liability. If I am being physically attacked and the dog bites in retaliation he gets a steak dinner that night. but if he takes it upon himself to bite a person who may or may not have been a threat... no questions asked. how does the dog know the difference between a would-be robber in the night and a police office, or a meter reader, or anyone else that may have a legit reason to walk into your yard.

Thats the type of dog that gives a newspaper journalist a hard-on... the ratings and newspaper sales that dogs of that mentality have generated and the BSL that dogs like that have given credit too... I am getting a guardian breed of dog to protect my dogs, because they are too friendly.
Diesel is more then a little intimidating to look at, he will bark a warning and look realy tough, but if the person starts baby talking him that tail is going to start wagging... thats how I like it. With his will to please I could easily train him to be aggressive or take him to protection training.. but the cons far outweigh the pros.
I am getting a Boerboel for the job... its what they are bred for and they have a natural guarding tendency... I dont have to train it in.

 

Re: "bluff?"

i was talking hogs and i never ever breed a staff these were real dogs not no backyard staff :rolleyes:

 

Re: "bluff?"

Wisconsin some of those peds you posted earlier are Bluffs, that is what I was talking about.

 

Re: "bluff?"

Let me say this...the APBT/Staff makes a GREAT guard dog.....ya know why???? Cuz IGNORANT assholes are deathly affraid of the dog...just by its looks and reputation. So in that aspect, the dogs existance acts as a DETERANT for would-be robbers or whatever. However, if the robber knew anything about the breed, or the dog was bred, trained, and socialized CORRECTLY....you would have one of the worst guard dogs you'd ever seen. SIMPLE.

 

Re: "bluff?"

Well I see that minds were at work while i was gone. I'm coming back here as a new person. i'm letting you guys know before i even speak that i don't mean anything i say at anyone in particular and i hope that i do not offend anyone.

I take back some things that I said in earlier posts. I kind of wish that RE lined dogs were referred to as a different breed, then RE wouldn't have to put up with the negative stereotype that people associate with APBT's. The name isn't going to change any time soon, so bare with it just a little while longer, at least refer to RE dogs as a type of APBT maybe. RE dogs are downed, but I feel that there are no bad RE dogs, only BAD BREEDERS. Only excuses are made for game dogs that don't fit the idea of a True APBT and that is not right.

Through my posts I have gotten a lot of people to say a lot of things ranging from "They are not APBT's based on looks" , "They are not APBT's based on performance", or "They are not APBT's because they deviate from the original design, purpose, etc." I no longer disagree with all of that, but Everyone here has contradicted theirself in some way. EVEN ME. I know I'm not perfect, but some people can not admit that!

One thing that I would really like to know is: To who are RE dogs giving a bad representation to? If game doggers and RE breeders know the difference, what is the big fuss? Those who don't know the difference probably don't care! Those who didn't like the APBT in the first place probably still don't and it's not because of RE dogs. All of the registries could care less...register a game dog-$ or register an RE dog-$. Some game doggers act as if the registries aren't getting a dime from them...the last time I checked, game dogs were still being registered for $ unless some new welfare program for game dogs is going on. LOL! Most people's reason for not owning an APBT is because they think they are vicious toward people/kids and other dogs, good for nothing but fighting, not good as housedogs or small spaces, that they are stubborn or stupid, or something along those lines, BUT most people thought that far before RE and some other lines came along. Many people see RE dogs and their first idea is that it is a Bulldog, which it is a type of, but they are thinking more English Bulldog by name. They would pet it in a heartbeat before petting a "standard looking" or "True APBT" until you tell them what it actually is. All I'm saying is that the APBT had a bad name far before RE dogs. It is not game doggers fault, it's Back Yard Breeders and Fight Ringers fault. In a sense, the TRUE APBT is TOTING a name it needs to drop. I think that as soon as the APBT legally used for fighting the breed should have taken on a new name. Who uses them for bull or bear-baiting? Who has still uses APBT's to spar in the "pit"? Nobody that wants to have a good name as a game dogger and I say this because the focus was not originally on their agility and atheleticism. That came later on.

How many of you have ever owned a Razor's Edge dog? If you haven't how would you know personally that it can not perform? There is also a lot of talk about problems in RE dogs. Can anyone here honestly say that game dogs have no problems and that these problems only arose when RE came along? OR are you probing for it? If the vet says it's a healthy dog, isn't it a healthy dog until PROVEN otherwise? It's good enough for your dogs, right? More than likely, you will not find an entire line that is screwed up...There are exceptions in EVERY line. And how is it that you are game doggers, yet you are keeping so in touch with a non-game line so well, but haven't dared to raise one? For those who have, Congratulations. I hear that Hyundai's are really bad cars, know a lot of people who would say so too, but I've never owned one myself, so do I really know? I also would like to speak about the BLUE dog craze or whatever. No one in their Right Mind is going to chose an unhealthy dog just because it is blue or breed just to get blues. Who do you honestly think would buy a mangy blue dog with an overbite and a kinked tail just to have a blue dog? People do have other criteria that goes first and if the dog happens to be blue maybe that's even better to them. The top RE studs are not even blue. The people breeding for color are novice breeders without a clue. Do you think people are in competition to get on the Bad Breeder's List?

I also saw a comment about overpriced dogs and them being put in shelters and such...I don't know what dummies you could be talking about...If someone pays $1,000 bucks for a dog, I think they will do whatever possible to keep it...On the other hand if you only paid $50 for a game dog and it did not Perform the way you wanted or didn't have the "fire" you thought it should, then wouldn't it be less of a loss to get rid of it? If a person without any knowledge of APBT's buys a game dog that unruly, dog aggressive, and is less attractive, I'm sorry, but they would sooner give it up than a better looking or expensive dog. I don't feel that a dog is overpriced if someone is buying it for their love of APBT's. I feel that if you are willing to pay that much, you should do the research on a line, breed, or it's breeder first anyway and believe me, there are many "overpriced" game dogs. If a person is not satisfied with the dog, then there is a difference. These are not all necessarily my feelings, I just feel that everyone should ask theirselves these questions.

The AKC eschewed breeds called "pit bulls" until 1936, then it recognized the American Pit Bull Terrier under the alias Staffordshire Terrier, named after the miners of Staffordshire, England, not to be confused with the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, which was later accepted into the AKC. (Alias - another name for something, not necessarily something different)

For all intents and purposes, the AKC, UKC, and ADBA version of the "Pit Bull" were identical.

If you would take the time to think about exactly what you are saying, you would see the little things that make the idea given of the TRUE APBT wrong.

In 1835 the British Parliament outlawed bull baiting, a sadistic gambling game in which bulldogs were used to attack and harass bulls brought to market with the dubious intention of tenderizing the meat. The dog would assault the bull, avoid the stomping hooves and slashing horns, grab a tender nose or ear, and hang on until the bull collapsed. Commoners and royalty alike sought diversion from the violence and diseases of their day by attending these bloody spectacles until a public outcry forced Parliament to take a stand.
Once bull baiting was banned, dog breeders who appreciated the fierceness, courage, and tenacity of the bull dogs turned their attentions to breeding dogs for dog fighting. They began with the bull dog, mixed in some terrier blood, and produced the Bull and Terrier, a dog that met all of their expectations. The Bull and Terrier was bred for aggression to other dogs, unrelenting bravery, a high pain threshold, a willingness to fight to the end, and an affection for people.

Bull and Terrier dogs came to the US in the early 1800s as all-around farm dogs and frontier guardians.

Besides the fighting of course, how many of you use your game dogs for these traditional purposes? Remember, if you deviate from this, you don't have a TRUE APBT,(so was said in an earlier post by several members)

The original Petey (The Lil' Rascals) was Lucenay's Peter, a purebred dog registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier with the United Kennel Club and as one of the 50 original Staffordshire Terriers accepted into the American Kennel Club. Whichever breed name is claimed for Petey, one thing is certain; today this dog could not be kept within many city limits without facing arrest and euthanasia. American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers are outlaws by city ordinance as vicious dogs.

We should all have jobs in debate, we do enough of it to get paid for it, right? LoL!

 

Re: "bluff?"

While i was away, i got my city manager to do a survey. tThe main point was to find out a few things in reference to game doggers feeling that the "patent" of the APBT has been ruined by MAINLY "RE" dogs(since some other lines were derrived from APBT's and not Staffs)

In the survey, photos of popular game dogs in the game dog world were used and so were celebrity game dog lined photos (petey from lil' rascals, stubby the war dog, etc.) For RE dogs, the most popular dogs were also used and even though most, NOT ALL lines of RE came from Staffs, pictures of popular Staffs were used also.

These are some sample questions and anonymous answers: ( I don't agree with the wording of all the questions or answers; and some of the people sound like the "village idiot" LOL. ) The poll was random and totaled 5,000 people.

1. What is your idea of the American Pit Bull Terrier?

- Those skinny strong dogs that people use to fight other dogs.
- The dogs that people chop the ears off of to look mean.
- The dogs that you see jump up and hang on to a rope or ball and won't let go of like the dog on Frazier.
- The dogs that you always hear about attacking someone's Yorkie.
- Those mean dogs.
- The red dogs with the pink noses people have tied up in their back yards.

2. Have you ever seen an American Pit Bull Terrier attack someone in person? (Not media footage)

- 99% said NO.

3. If yes, what color was the American Pit Bull Terrier?

- 55% said brown or colors resembling brown such as fawn, tan, beige, yellow.

- 22% said red.

-10% said black

- 8% said brindle or striped

- over 4% said white or white piebald/pied with white being the dominant color.

- less than 1% said grey (1 person actually used the term "blue")

What is the purpose of a game dog?

- To catch or bring back animals to a hunter such as wild hogs, birds, or squirrels.

- To bring back small animals killed by a hunter.

- To hunt down a target.

- To win in a heavy roll of about 30 min. with a dog that is heavier in weight, but is a light biter.

4. What does a game bloodlined dog look like?(I feel that the question should have at least been what does a GOOD game bloodlined dog look like)

- Skinny, boney, starved, mangy.

- Stocky with good muscle, not too tall, thick short tail, thick neck, muzzle shorter than the top of the head, deep wide chest, any color, good bite. The weight should be anywhere from 30lbs. to 75lbs. if it is proportioned correctly on the body. Less for bitches.

- Red with a red nose or tan, black, or white with a black nose. Tall and not bowlegged.

5. What is a Razor's Edge dog?

- A new kind of Pit Bull.

- A thick Pit Bull with cropped ears.

- The miniature version of the Pit Bull.

- The Pit Bull's with the really big heads.

6. Do you consider a Razor's Edge dog to be a game dog?

- 99% said yes.

- less than 1% said no.

- the other percentage answered that they did not know.

If no, why?

- They are too big.

- They are too short.

- They are not aggressive enough dogs.

There are tons more questions and I could not get the City Manager to release a copy to me because of policy, but I was able to get this sample. I think we should get together and create a survey with questions we can all agree on.

 

Re: "bluff?"

Hey, I'm with you guys on that biting thing. No dog should bite a person with the exception of Police dogs. What will keep him from the next step... - biting you?

 

Re: "bluff?"

"I kind of wish that RE lined dogs were referred to as a different breed, then RE wouldn't have to put up with the negative stereotype that people associate with APBT's", Txsbkennel

Maybe you should go hang out on Jessup's Bluff Dog Forum.

 

Re: "bluff?"

Tx I agree GOOD information!!!!!!!!!!

 

Re: "bluff?"

Please don't send these people there :p Then I gotta deal with 'em on two boards.

 

Re: "bluff?"

Here is a bluff that is ranked #4 on ratemypitbull.com. The owner admits that if the dog wasn't on a chain, it would be attacking people.
Read his comments....
http://www.ratemypitbull.com/view_my_comment.php?c=299

If the link doesn't work, click on Bloodypitbull and go to page 6 of his comments. The thread "what is that" is the one I am talking about.

And people swear up and down that breeding for looks is not the reason this breed is being ruined.