"bluff?"

Re: "bluff?"

If there has been something worth noting, a bluff lover such as yourself would find it to prove your point. PLEASE, show me a good point.

 

Re: "bluff?"

there is hogs in wisconsin and if u just learned what a game dog is you can never ev en talk with wisdom and also all this talk about a dog cant be this color and that color dosent mater nothing matters until u find out for your self
but dont think a dog that kills a hog is game but he is amazing at what he does and hog hunt take alot of stamina exspecially if you do more than one hog a hunt come on now thats the closest thing to fighting a dog not only that a hog can easilly kill your dog so for all u couch bred gamers there u go :p jk

 

Re: "bluff?"

I dont need to debate this one.
Read this and get back to me...

"The APBT standard and the recent emergence of the Merle pattern in the breed.
The recent appearance of merle patterned APBTs and a couple breeders specializing in the “new” and “rare” color has stirred up a controversy in the APBT community. The general thought among those that have been around the breed for the greatest number of years is that, these new color patterns were brought about by unscrupulous outcrossing to a separate breed such as Catahoula Leopard dogs. Several breeds are known to carry merle as a color pattern but the APBT is not one known to have ever carried this "infected" allele. What is known is that Catahoula Leopard dogs along with pit bulls are often used in the sport of hog catching and it is known that crosses of these breeds have been made in attempts to produce more competitive catch dogs.

The following comments from the APBT standard committee provide prelude to a brief essay on the merle locus in relation to the APBT

Walt Pasko "I feel the emergence of the merle color pattern in our breed has raised the questions of how it was introduced into our breed and what health problems the merle gene could cause. From all information I've read, I have to recommend that the merle color be made a disqualification in the APBT Breed Standard."

Carol Gaines Stephens "I strongly oppose the color pattern ‘merle’ in the APBT since it has never been there in the past and has just recently risen it’s ugly head with the popularity of the catch dogs in the south. I have spoken to several people from the south that say that they know and do so themselves, cross the APBT with the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog to make a better catch dog. If the gene has never been present in all these decades/centuries then how did it finally come about just recently? I am a firm believer in leaving the standard the way it was originally, but when something surfaces that has no rhyme nor reason, then I think we have to address the matter."

Cheryl Larum "I am in agreement with the other committee members on the merle issue"

Scot E. Dowd " First it should be noted that there are ways that the merle can remain hidden such as within a complete phaeomelanic coat where the merle would not be evident, also there are cryptic merles, however this absolutely would fail to explain the relatively recent appearance of this color pattern in the APBT. I feel that another allele with defined health problems associated with this locus, is not a positive thing for our breed"

The following information is submitted on behalf of the NAPBTA standard committee - Scot E. Dowd

There are two issues of concern with the merle as a color pattern. The first, as mentioned, is that merle pattern in the APBT may have come about through unethical outcrossing to another breed of dog. This practice would then have been followed by falsely registering such a outbred animal either with the ADBA or UKC as a purebred APBT. Such false registration would be termed hanging papers. The other issue is related to the health aspects of the Merle allele. Here I will try to answer the predominant questions that arise regarding the merle allele and the APBT without making a judgment of my own other than that expressed above.



Why is a color or color pattern so important to the stewards of the breed?



The entire process of coloration and color patterns in dogs starts with embryonic development. The specific cells that become melanocytes (pigment producing cells) are derived entirely from the neuronal crest of the embryo. This essentially means that pigment cells are directly produced along with the same cells that give rise to the nervous system. Though not entirely true, it can be assumed that if you have defects in genes associated with color genetics you might also have nervous system defects because both types of cells are derived from the neuronal crest. This provides a logical genetic indicator and explains why it is likely that certain dilute or patterned dogs, such as extreme piebalds, or other types of homozygous dilutes common in the APBT, as well as those that may be carrying the Merle pattern are prone to psychological, neurological and/or immunological problems found in other breeds that carry these alleles.



What is merle?



Merle like other dilution alleles acts to lighten whatever color would otherwise have been expressed. However, with merle the lightening effect is not spread evenly over the coat, but produces patches of undiluted color (dappled pattern) scattered over the dog's body. The merle gene when heterozygous Mm (only one copy of the gene) on an otherwise black dog produces a blue merle which is phenotypically a bluish gray dog that is dappled with full color black spots. A homozygous or MM dog (carrying two copies of the merle gene), often called a double merle or a homozygous merle, will be a mostly white dog (similar to an extreme Piebald). The normal state of the merle locus is dual recessive mm and completely lacks the offending transposon resulting in normal color.

 

Re: "bluff?"

Part 2:
Maybe merle has been in the breed throughout its history and only now is it being noticed?



The response to this question is also genetic in nature. The genetic and phenotypic nature of the Merle locus and the merle allele (M) is such that it would not remain unnoticed in a breed and suddenly appear. It would take crossing to another breed that carries the merle allele for it to be transferred into the breed. The reason it could not remain invisible or hidden is because the Merle allele is expressed with incomplete dominance. This means, if it is within the genome at all, even in a heterozygote (one copy of the gene) state, it is still expressed and evident. The M allele is not found in all breeds; in fact most breeds do not carry it. Finally, this specific transposon cannot arise spontaneously or through mutation as some have claimed.



What are the health problems associated with the merle allele?



The merle allele like a couple other dilution factors when expressed in a homozygous state is correlated to psychological, neurological, and usually immunological issues. Here I will mention a few of the issues. The first are eye development problems that are superficial in nature affecting appearance such as heterochromia iridis (A difference of color between the iris of one eye and the other), thus a dog with one brown and one blue eye has heterochromia iridis. Note that this defect is not necessarily or always indicative of having the merle gene because it can also be found in dogs with extreme piebald or double blue dilution for example. In addition to superficial indicators there are also major effects such as absence of tapetum lucidum. Tapetum lucidum is a reflective substance that lines the back of the dogs eyes. This reflective structure acts like a mirror and reflects light back through the retina, like a satellite dish giving the retina two chances to catch the light. Dogs that lack tapetum licidum have night blindness or reduced ability to see in low light. Another defect is lack of retinal pigment and microphthalmia. Microopthalmia (smaller than normal eye) is described as dogs having prominent third eyelids and seemingly small eyes which appear recessed in the eye socket (enophthalmos). Another problem known as coloboma is actually a physical cleft in a portion of the eye, particularly the iris. In addition to the eyes which are a key indicator of neurological defects, there is also evidence for effects on the ears that result in reduction in auditory sensitivity or complete deafness because the merle color locus exerts epistatic effects on ear development. Excessive white or dilution in a dog of any color can be a warning sign of potential hearing problems. If there is no pigment in the inner ear the dog will be deaf; white ears are more likely to lack inner ear pigment.



More technically, what is the genetic explanation of the merle pattern?



The merle allele is considered to be caused by a transposon or transposable element. A transposon is a piece of DNA that has the potential to actually jump out of, or excise from the gene it has infected (disrupted), during cellular division and genetic DNA replication. This means that while melanocytes are migrating from the neuronal crest during embryonic development the merle transposon can remove itself from the gene in some of the melanocytes when they are derived and produce normal coloration on those parts of the coat to which they migrate. Thus, the merle allele acts to cause eumelanic areas in the coat, to become diluted, but other areas to be fully and intensely pigmented. Such fully colored areas occur in scattered patches throughout the body. The merle locus is autosomal (not carried on one of the sex chromosomes) acting as a dominant mutation (it is expressed in all dogs that carry this gene). It should also be noted that genetically such transposons do not arise spontaneously but must be passed from sire and/or dam to offspring. This means that if the APBT did not carry this allele to begin with, then only through outcrossing to another breed, that does carry this transposon, could it be integrated into the APBT genome.



Thus, we as members of the National American Pit Bull Association are presented with the issue of a dilution pattern that may have been introduced into the breed by unethical conduct. As stewards of the breed we have to choose to continue to honor our current standard and allow this color pattern or to change the standard to reflect that merle is not an acceptable color pattern for the breed. "

Like I said this isnt the same thing, blues are accepted and being blue is not a problem, being overdone, and sloppy is an issue... just being merle is a DQ. He dog could be game as all get out but just being merle gets it DQ'd from the breed. Your beef is with the ADBA, UKC, and the others that contributde to the decision to take just this one coat color and remove it from the list.
TO go from any combination of colors being accepted to anything but merel... its a big statement.

 

Re: "bluff?"

AWW hell man, the damn dog can be pink with yellow spots, GAME is the only color in this breed. Breeding for anything other than game:

NOT A APBT!. not pitbulls, petbulls big and blue

AMERI.....HOLD UP CAUSE U KNOW I'MA SAY IT

AMERICAN PITBULL TERRIER

Jesus frigging chirst i watched this merry go rounf go back and forth over and over. No a game dog doesnt have to be game to catch a hog, they have other breeds like even LABS being used as catch hogs. but hog hunting only depends in a certain happening if the dog is game or not...

 

Re: "bluff?"

game dog can come in any color imo but dont think that hog can not kill your dog im talkin haog hunt not hog catchin hog hunting is dog vs wild animal and either can win its real exciting but better bring a gun just in case your dog get the worst end of it

 

Re: "bluff?"

you could fertalize the lower 40 with most of this thread.
and thats not to say some of it hasnt leaked out of my sack in some posts but to put this much in one place really stinks.

breeders who go for color are not breeding apbt they are breeding dogs for cash. dont care what color it is if its true to form and true in the heart it qualifies.

 

Re: "bluff?"

Ummm, actually in hog hunting, your dog does NOT kill the hog but rather you, the main hunter, does. What you're describing is hog/dog fighting & is illegal almost everywhere & is why the rest of us hunters are being persecuted for using dogs. Hell, here in Louisiana, it's illegal for us to train our dogs thanks to this "I just let my dogs loose & they kill the hogs--even if some of them die" shit. It's the bay dogs' job to track & find the hogs, the catch dogs' job to do just that, catch, & YOUR job to decide if you want to shoot the hog, use a knife, take it back alive, or let it go. It's not your dogs' decision.

 

Re: "bluff?"

putting a dog against a hod without training and experience can cost you and your dog your lives. bring a big gun and be sure you can hit what your aiming at. go with people who know what they are doing before you let your dog even smell hog. ask people that have lost horsed legs dogs friends etc to hog hunting its a 150-350lb animal with a 2-6 inch spike coming out of either side of its head.

 

Re: "bluff?"

You're right Wis.Dog, a night of hog hunting can be very taxing. Each hunt will not last as long as a match, but the opponent is much heavier & can do much more damage. When folks I've known wanted to test their dogs they'd go out & catch all night w/ naked dogs (no vests or collars). They might come up on half a dozen hogs & the dog is running & fighting all night long. Some folks may it's not tough enouhg, but I say this:

1: You've probably not seen a hog & dog get down if you say that

&

2: It's better than no testing at all!

As for merles, what the NAPBTA says is all well & good, but where were they 10 years ago when I got my 1st merle? Nowhere, b/c UKC was still reg'ing merles!

 

Re: "bluff?"

people have been breeding on color basis for a while alot of zebo dogs are black or red red nosed nothing else almost and im sure the same can be said with eli dogs virgil dogs once they had a good winner they bred him to the same lines wich produce the same colors amd not to mention masons hog was blue brindle and as far as trouble goes i heard they did not except his champ because he is blue to bad for the dogs he beat hahah

 

Re: "bluff?"

zebo not bred for color its due to line breeding

 

Re: "bluff?"

it is from line breeding but lonzo him elf likes the black dogs and big heads and big chest granted these dogs are not over sized though but alot of blues have been line breed hence producing mostly blues :p

 

Re: "bluff?"

Wis.Dog - I know Turpin personally & heard straight from her mouth Trouble went into fluffs. Think about it - if it was b/c he was blue don't you think Kelly would have refused his reports when they were first submitted??? I mean she was submitting his whole name - Blu Trouble. But he didn't. He accepted & published them all. It was only until he saw Trouble at a dog show he refused his cert. And I can tell you as someone who has seen Trouble personally, he is clean as a whistle. She herself told me she was going into any local backyarders that came along. Come on, she was going against 61lb Chinaman stuff! Have you heard of 61lb Chinaman stuff? I haven't. It was just fat unconditioned comp handled by noobs. Now I'm not trying to take anything away from Trouble - at least he did something. Most blues do zilch & he has at least some kind of adversity put against him. But I can assure you as someone who knows the dog personally, Trouble didn't do as much as you think he did.

 

Re: "bluff?"

im new here so dont go off on me.....

i think if someone wants to breed blues, tri's, red noses or pink noses i think its there choice.....people are always going to want one type/color of dog for shows/weightpull or whatever or maybe just cos there whole yard is red noses they choose to "specialize" in red noses. its personal choice...i think if your selling your pups for around 850 (thats what they go fro here) your not in it for the "money " if you take a look at costs for shots, the bitch, the stud, , food, etc you'll see SOME people dont breed for money but they do like a certain coor. aint nothing wrong with that i think.

its when you see ALL colors not just BLUES going for and upwards of 6500 dollars ! to me for that price , thats crazy....tell me your not making money off of that........

it shouldnt matter what color your dog is let alone its nose....as long as it fits the breed standard and i know not to many do, but i know tons of "correct" blues that are not bulky and they do not breed for size either. if i have permission id like to post there pics here but they havent gotten back to me yet.

and for the merle thing....i dont quite understand the genetics surrounding it but i can tell you this ....i have had a merle cat and my grandmother has a merle pig, that doesnt meen the catahou-whatever dog screwed my cat and my grandma's pig to get that color. if you can trace your merle back generations and generations and prove that its pure i think you should be allowed to register it....

and for the game people i dont understand another thing . if hog hunting doesnt prove your dogs "gameness " how EXACTLY do you prove it...how do you know your dog is game or isnt !

 

Re: "bluff?"

another book:eek: oh boy:rolleyes:

 

Re: "bluff?"

any pup thats more than400-500 is obserd unless off a good proven champ or gand champ that is producing very well people are taking that shit to the next level

 

Re: "bluff?"

here is a lil on blu dogs by stratton Richard F. Stratton.com - Articles>
Going Light Barney and Blue Dogs by Richard F. Stratton
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although I have been often referenced as the authority on Going Light Barney, I must confess that I never even saw Barney in holds. I found it quite fascinating, however, that he was one of the most controversial dogs of which I ever knew. I think part of the reason for that fact was Barney’s flamboyant owner, who is still alive as I write this. Although not a bad fellow, he had a way of stirring up the dander of other dog men. Consequently, all of Barney’s accomplishments were always scrutinized with a jaundiced eye. Since I had my picture taken with Barney, a lot of people seem to think that Barney once belonged to me, but such was not the case, although I did own a daughter of his which I bred back to him. That breeding produced George, one of my finest all-time dogs from a pit dog perspective.
It is hard to believe now, but Barney was whelped way back in the sixties, so he is definitely an old timer. He was the product of breeding a daughter of Johnston’s fabulous Goofy dog to a Rascal bitch. That produced Barney’s mother, Penny, and she was nothing to write home about–possibly a cold bitch and a trifle shy. She was bred to Rootberg’s Booger, strictly on the basis of his being a pure Corvino dog. So it is not surprising that not much was expected of the litter, but it produced Barney and several females which were renowned for their gameness, one of them, Going Light Babe, winning a Best in Show down South in a losing effort!
Barney had a storied career. He had been farmed out to some guy in the inner city to raise and was rolled from the time he was six months old, something no educated dog man would do. After he killed Two-Dollar George, a highly valued pit dog in a pick up match when he was only a little over a year old, he was reclaimed by his owner, who called himself Larry Light in the pit circuit. He was matched into fast company down in Mississippi against a Carver dog and won handily in about twenty minutes. This was the convention which also featured Boomerang and the immortal Bolio. Bolio won best in show because he won over the dog with the highest reputation, a dog which was thought to be unbeatable.
The controversy comes from the fact that Barney was counted out in his third match in Dallas. Larry swore up and down that he was doped, as the dog didn’t know where he was, and he had lost his equilibrium for several hours. Whatever happened, Barney came back to win six in row against the best the other side could come up with. One match was raided and the dogs confiscated. This was before the felony laws, and the dogs were broken out of the pound in which they were held. The match was held, and Barney won in an hour and five minutes. Barney was dyed black and shipped to a preacher in New Mexico. Part of the reason for all of this chicanery was that Larry was suing the animal control people for losing possession of his dog!
Barney’s toughest match was against another ear dog, extremely well thought of, and the match went nearly two hours before Barney prevailed. That was back in the oil crisis days, in which you couldn’t plan a long trip, as you might run out of fuel. Larry and his cohorts loaded up a station wagon with several gallons of gasoline so that they could make the trip there and back without having to stop or having to worry about fuel. I was invited to go along, but I was not of a mind to travel in that rolling bomb! Hence, I missed my chance to see a great match. Barney usually had an easy time with his opponents, controlling them with ear holds until the dog was worn down, and then Barney went in for the kill. I think it was the "quit" in Dallas that made it possible for Larry to go on finding matches for Barney.
After the above mentioned match, a fellow named Jobe, who put out a pit dog magazine, did a cover story on Barney. He had been there at the match, and he dubbed Barney a "grand champion." That was the first time I had ever seen that term used. Now, he would not be eligible for the title because of the loss in his second match. Mitigating circumstances don’t count, and besides, Larry was never able to prove anything.
Barney was known more for ability than for gameness, but he was game enough to win, and the loss came under suspicious circumstances. Barney was an unusual Bulldog in that he had an aloof personality, in direct contradistinction to most Bulldogs. He won Larry’s wife over because he would sit up and do tricks on the chain or in the kennel run, but once he was taken out, his demeanor changed completely. He had achieved his goal, so the charm was gone, and he simply was off to do what he wanted. Larry, who was a real estate speculator who owned half the land in San Diego county, loved the deviousness of the dog. He was also delighted that his wife, who abhorred the pit dog game, was Barney’s stoutest ally–although she certainly never went to a match.
Barney was never open to stud, and he was never bred much, as Larry seemed to concentrate his breeding program on breeding dogs that were down from Penny and in breeding Barney’s sisters, in particular Babe. Larry was one of those guys who kept track of litters by naming all the pups with the same letter, but somehow one in this litter got named Scarlet. Although a fine pit dog, she escaped Larry’s ownership. Another game sister of Barney was Belle, who won several matches.
As for blue dogs, most of them are sought out today by those who want a dog for appearance. I have even heard it said that all blue dogs stem from Staf blood. Being of a skeptical nature, I tend to doubt that "fact." One of the best dogs I ever saw was a blue dog and his brother in a Las Vegas convention. They were both talented and game, but I was never able to ascertain their breeding–but they certainly seemed to have no Staf blood in them. Besides, the Staf standard calls for a black nose, so I doubt that would be the source of the blue dogs. In truth, there are probably a multitude of sources, as it seems to be a simple Mendelian trait.
Readers may be amused to learn that Heinzl once informed me that the last Stratton he knew was an African-American gentleman who had a strain of blue dogs. Again, he didn’t know the breeding on them, but Howard said they were as game a line as he had ever seen. And Howard was tough to please!
People with a little experience are quick to denounce Barney and the blue dogs. I would suggest a little caution in that respect. Barney may have not been the greatest dog of his time, but he beat some really good dogs. And not all blue dogs are alike.

 

Re: "bluff?"

Now how the hell, can you get more correct than that....LOL

Excellent!!!

 

Re: "bluff?"

Wisconsondog
I understand your case your trying to make here,however as you stated you are using that blood as a out cross thus far....

Have you tried tightening that staff end up, if so what were your results?

Now, I have had the pleasure years ago to have had a dog bred to standard out of the way of Hollands doc Hyde. I had a couple awsome dogs when used as a cross, but I had more plugs than anything else....and the difference is to know when it's just a plug and reconizing a gamedog. Needless to say that blood aint around no more ...at least not on my yard.

So do I beleive in the possibility's of this....Yes, however the numbers are so low at breeding a dog that fits the true standard of the APBT that is heavy in staff backround....the big question is can it produce to standard better than what it is or is it a fluke?

Let's face it how many breeders realy stuck to standard. One has to realy believe in what their breeding program is...

And that is said for APBT breeders as well...you aint breeding to standard you shouldn't be breeding these dogs. Half the battle is knowing and reconizing what the standard is and settling for nothing less than that of the gamedog.

For these Re bluff breeders, I'm pushin for the ADBA to site you as a specialty breed. Those dogs are not bred to standard....in turn you have created a seperate breed away from the APBT. You should IMO be held accountable for this.