When were pit fighting dogs first mentioned in history?

I see a ton of sketches and paintings of bear dogs and bulldogs. I want to know when was the first mention of dog fights. I believe animal baiting was outlawed in 1835 and the stuff I have read lists how this law basically led to the sport of dog fighting since animal baiting was not alllowed and dog fights were easier to hide. I found a dog in my dog's pedigree that goes back to 1890 or a little earler that fought in Boston I believe.



The reason I ask is that we all mention the dog agression these dogs posses just like I do, but at some point in time these dogs were utility dogs, working stock and hunting right? so how long did it take to design the dog from pack hunter to a fighting dog? Do you guys believe that since dog DNA is so pliable they could be turned into pack working dogs. I don't mean couch potatoe lap dogs either lol

 

Of course they could if you look at dogs from old OFRN and today Waccamaw even make good hunting dogs that have to work in packs to bring down wild boar....fighting dogs has been happening for A LONG LONG TIME even before the APBT people in the Balkans and China were fighting dogs pretty much if they had a dog they wanted to prove it was the baddest this was happening since like 200 A.D its always been like that but didnt hit mainstream until it hit the west in the 16th century were it was going on while bull baiting was just wasnt as big a deal until bull baiting became illegal in the 1835

 

the romans took english mastiffs back and used them in arena sports where they "aquitted themselves admirably" whether it was dog on dog i cant verify but i should imagine they did ,

 

these dogs were never pack dogs and were bred away from pack work since the roman times 50 AD. it was through selective breeding from many types of working bulldogs from europe that made these dogs what they are today. they were butcher dogs in europe in the late1700's and 1800's and were called tie dogs or something like that because they were too mean to handle and selective breed again and fine tuned for the pit through breeding. this fine tunning made them not human aggessive in the pit when they were needed to be handled. they were never really bred to be group pack hunters. if your asking if they can be bred to be working pack dogs like huskies and such, i just dont see it happening. you can selectively breed these dogs to be pack hunters with alot of time and outcrossing. there will have to be outcrosses with a different breed to throw different characteristics into the APBT blood. its been done already with breeds like the dogo argentino one of the best and selectivelly breed to work game in large packs with other dogs and is very athletic. it would be a waste of time and alot of money in todays economy to try. DNA why not they are cloning embryos and making bulls into muscle freaks. anything is possible, but scientists arent going to waste their time with that. dont get me wrong you can work with the APBT in small groups but this guy asked about a large group pack hunters and i dont see a large pack of PURE APBT'S working in a hunting scene with each other corporately.

 

There are already dogs bred to hunt in a pack, why on earth would you try to use these dogs for a task others are much better suited for. This breed was bred solely for dog fighting, they used bulldogs for the bull and bear baiting and terrier type dogs for rodents and under ground hunting.

 

good post !!

 

Not trying to breed anything, just asking what people think. I also wanted to know when dog fighting was officially mentioned in history books since that was the only way to document stuff back then, besides artwork. If I am not mistaken most war/fighting breeds originated from the Alaunts. The Spaniards used an Alaunt type dog to conquer the Americas and they were used to fight man or beast and worked in groups. Obviously changing the selective use for an APBT or any dogwill change the breed completely and it would no longer be the same dog but it was just a question since I see some people manage to use them for hunting boar as catch dogs. I also think the APBT is one of the few breeds that remain functional and not ruined by industrialization so this why I ask specifically about this breed.

Here is some art that I found:









Some pig dogs from Spain who ressemble the ones in the painting looks wise:

 

if you amazon search
A Complete History of Fighting Dogs(Hardcover)
by Mike Homan it will let you read a couple of pages that will maybe give you an answer. i bought the book used a while ago very good book

 

yeah you are right, that is how american stafordshires came about. and i do have a game bred dog that lives with a inside 5lb toy dog lol. it amazes me to see just how well they get along. im not saying it cant be done. im saying it will take alot more suppervision and training than one that was bred to be specifically a pack dog. these dogs do get along with one another, but even american stafordshires are still prone to animal aggresion. then again what is a pack to you? a pack to me is like CEASAR MILLANs 10-30 dogs loose at all times. can you imagine 10-30 pitbulls in one pack all getting along even if they were breed away from its game traits. these are not wolves keep in mind. and even if they were bred far from game traits lets call it a American stafordshire then, do you think 10-30 amstaffs running loose would all get along as lets say huskies. i just think it would be harder even with selective breeding because there is always a recesive gene that will pop up even when breeding away from a trait without an outcross. again what i think of a pack might differ from what you call a pack.

 

lol wolves communicate by rolling over and growling and showing teeth. the APBT was bred to ignore those signs and not bullshit arround as other dogs and us humans do at times lol. that is the only reason i would see that a outcross of a specific pack dog would be needed to ever get what DAVIDFITNESS is asking. and again what i call a pack is 10-30 dogs running free at all times lol.

 

You can change any breed into whatever you want. Starting with the right kind of dogs can put you ahead of the game and cut you some time. but generations and generations of selective breeding and culling the undesireable traits from your family of dogs and you will get what you want. It could be done, but there is a easier route today since there are already plenty of pack animals to choose from... why start with the furthest thing from it... you're only wasting time.

 

A pack dog isnt needed. Every dog in every litter of yours will not have the same degree of dog aggression. You just keep selecting the dog who works well with others out of each litter and eventually your trait of DA will diminish. Just like if you wanted to creat a fighting breed... you wont need a DA breed that already exist to make it happen, but it would make things a lot easier if you did.

 

I dont know where I seen the video, but I seen it online. Some people took a certain type of fox/jackle/or some type of candid... I cant remember. but for like 30 years they bred them two different ways. they bred all the aggressive ones to eachother and all the ones that were people friendly to eachother. they both changed in appearance and temperament and grew far apart...one strain obviously became more domesticated like. They did this all with the same stock over a lot of years and the animal started to act dog-like. So they did not need to introduce a domesticated dog into the family...but i bet if they did shit woulda started rolling a lot quicker.

 

Sulimov Dog are what you are talking about, i seen the national geographic show too. you cant see the full clip now on there, but i seen the whole show myself. they were bred for drug sniffing porposses and are held by the russian government. they are golden jackles and a mix of many more dogs. the dogs that are listed is all they will tell of. i understand about evolution but a your not going to change evoulution of a dog that has been shaped to not be a pack dog in thirty years. i dont see it happining with the APBT. the golden jackle is clossly realated to the wolf a pack animal. and who knows what else was bred into it becasue the government will only tell you so much on there prized dog with extreme sence of smell they have. i dont see what the jackal dog has to do with evolution of a the k9 species. im using the amstaff as my example of it being bred away from APBT stock, but it still has its dog agression tendicies. you have to breed out to get a true pack dog out of a APBT. i guess i will have to see it done to belive what your telling me

 

and i dont call 3-5 dogs in the backyard a pack Im calling a pack 10-30 dogs lose running at all times. sometimes you cant even keep 2 APBT's together let alone a real pack of them. it will take longer and alot of culling to do and 30 yrs wont cut it without a cross of a real pack dog. i just dont see it happening

 

Na, I seen that one too. The one I'm talking about was for scientific purposes... no crosses. They just mated the aggressive animals with the aggressive animals and 30 years later you have a animal that is fucken nuts. You breed the most human friendly animals which are very few to eachother and 30 years later u got these animals acting like mans best friend.

regarding the Amstaff, that is a good example. But these people are only breeding for a certain look.... not to eradicate certain traits. If you kill every amstaff that ever shows dog aggression for 30 years... and only breed animals that work with other dogs. You will not have DA in that breed lol but that is not their goal so the trait remains. Cuz if an amstaff is dog aggressive, its still getting bred... even though aggression is not the goal. It lets the trait continue infuture generations.

 

Thats why people stress killing man eaters like they do. If it wouldnt change the breed... then who gives a fk? Lol. But it will change the breed. If we all breed man eaters, 30 years later our dogs will be fuckin nuts. If NO1 breeds man eaters... 30 years later that shit will be eradicated for the most part. Thats why i mention the video, cuz they took 1 stock of animals two totally different directions. even though they started out the same genetically.

 

breed standards call for a human passive dog. we as APBT's owners like to think that our dogs are not Human agressive, but these dogs do come from what were once known as butcher dogs which were HA and DA. As good as your statements sound on breeding its just not practicle in the world. if you think that a APBT can be bred even though bred not to be for centries to be a succeful pack dogs and produce succesfull pack dogs with out a cross sounds too far fetched for me to believe.