what is a cold dog

Re: famous cur dogs

Three hour dog like Sandman...I'll take a yard full of dogs the cailber of Sandman!

 

Re: famous cur dogs

u cant cull all quitters, there is no way. if you cull a dog the caliber of sandman you are most likely culling the best dog you will EVER own. this thread is comical, dead game dogs dont come around often so if you have a deep game dog you better breed it, good luck finding something better. cull a elite dog and breed a lesser og you have on your yard that hasnt quit but you know damn well would quit to a dog the caliber of buck in 30. at some point we have to ignore all the hard core cull everything non-sense we hear and think about what we are really doing. you take the info you learn from others and come to you're own conclusion. i've had ppl get mad at me for question why when they teach me something or asking someone else something after being told by someone else but the point is to improve and that means taking someones strengths and improving on their weaknesses. so many silly post on this thread

 

Re: famous cur dogs

:goodposting:

 

Re: famous cur dogs

Boze you make a good point. I read that Lester Hughes did say all dogs will quit. But maybe he's just getting old . So can we now agree that there are no levels of gameness? I stand corrected... Your views wardog were my views a while ago till I read about Lester Hughes .




If a dog quits it's a cur..

Sorry boze gorilla naustrom and wardog. I agree with y'all now.

 

Re: famous cur dogs

Though if a dog quits in shock. It still can be a gamedog..

 

Re: famous cur dogs

A dog doesnt quit in shock. For a dog to "QUIT" it has to be a concious choice. Being in shock "for those of you who have never been in shock" isnt a concious mindset. You usually dont know where your at or how you got there. Sometimes you even forget mass amounts of time that you just participated in. Its alot like being out on your feet. Your awake but rarely responsive at all. So no if a dog is in shock it doesnt quit. It probably doesnt even know where its at or what its been through.

 

Re: famous cur dogs

You don't go from cur to D.G. BULLSHIT seen it happened .Dog quit in 15mins then was sold & went 3hrs to his death.The truth of it is you never know what the dog is going to do.Do you think the owners of sandman thought he would quit?Or how about all the dogs tornado killed do you think their owners tought they would quit ?Look at all the quitters who fill peds,There your dogs all we can try do is breed the best we have & hope it works!

 

Re: famous cur dogs

What Hughes said was a saying that was around for a long time,even before Hughes.I think its a cheap shot at a dog that has proven it was game at that time.Its like saying well Homer dies dead game but if he was picked up and matched again he would quit to a harder biting dog.Look some fools left their dog down even though they could see it couldn't win.Another old saying the dogs are only human,so don't expect them to do the impossible that you can't do.So since Sandman was a cur ,does that mean all the dogs he produced should have been put down also?Bullyson?Truth is most anyone wishes they had one like them. Cur is thrown out there too much.

 

Re: famous cur dogs

This one made it's last scratch in shock, http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=82629

 

Once again Limey AMEN!! I said all this at the vary start of the thread and was dissagreed with. I totaly agree and it seems alot have never seen a truely cold dog. Thanx for the valadation.

 

Gorillla , Just stop lol.

 

Re: famous cur dogs

What Limey is saying is in his opinion thay will all quit sooner or later under the right/Wrong cercumstances. In Other Words a dog that shows dead game one day may have not went out DG in another situation on another day. I understand what he is saying but cant agree. A dog that went out DG should be held to the highest regard and there should be no speculation on what he "may have"done but judged on what he "DID" do. Anything elts is disrespectfull IMO

 

Re: famous cur dogs

Most dogs was never put to the test like Sandman just for example. There are plenty of dogs that won matches in short order/or became champion and was bred like hell .They was just game enough or had ability enough to win. Nobody went into a match believing their dog would quit.Greenhorns are going to do messed up things.For that matter so do experience dogmen.Breeding is a selective process with a thought out plan that should be done by experience breeders.?You breed the best you have and cull out the ones that don't make it. But thats not always what happens ,is it?Most breeders would still be proud to have a dog be able to go 3 hours.

 

Re: famous cur dogs

I agree with you.Well said.A DGD should be given respect.They earned it.Hopefully the breeder/owner got pups off them.

 

Gorrila did you buy those dogs from me??. becasue if not then ""IT AINT MY STOCK"" but bred douwn ""from"" my stock. the dogs they where bred to where NOT my chooice . never the less they could ore could not have work out.i have no track record of that.. The Terror x candy dogs where ""mostly"" ecseptional animals, same gose for the Magic x Candy dogs with a smal ecseption of your od one ore two quiters in there. 75% did work out good..... but thats a difernd story..

 

Re: famous cur dogs

Wow, all this trouble about curs lol.

Stratos, not all these dogs are game. But so far we have been doing a decent job of selecting out the bad ones for now and luckily they are few compared to the ones we are still feeding.
Here is an example of one that did quit. She stopped in 2:10 in her second although it's not shown on that ped. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=341351

And here are a couple that didn't quit and took their deaths in the pit.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=177342

http://elidogs.freehostia.com/muchalucha_pedigree.htm

This last one did her courtesy after we picked her up, the ref grabbed her right before she made a hold and as he was handing her over to us she died in his arms. I'd take a hundred curs like her anyday.

Also I think that when people say all will quit they may be reffering to the fact that any dog can be ruined. This I know to be true, they are not machines.

Finally, this one was the down dog taking lots of damage for an hour but came from the bottom and showed everyone what a game dog is.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=313251

We should try and be gentlemen discussing this topic. We all have different opinions and no doubt they are based on each of our individual experiences so even though we may not agree with someone elses opinion it doesn't mean it doesn't have merit under the circumstances that the person derived it from.

Whatever your opinion may be will be reflected upon the dogs you breed.

 

Re: famous cur dogs

gorilla it is not the fact that you think curs should be culled, it is the fact that you think regardless of the circumstances if a dog quits you think it should be culled. so amount of blood loss means nothing to you, shock means nothing to you, the amount of damage means nothing to you. these are the areas i have a problem with, and these kind of posts do not help newbies. if you understand these dogs like you say then these things do and should come into play, a dog who gets three bleeders hit and then stands the line is no cur and to think so is utterly ridiculous, and is also detrimental to the dogs. you have to understand that sand man was a proven gamedog who has seen more time than a lot of these paper champions now a days whos times or comp do not even add up to two hours. also to not take time into account is also a big mistake, when i think of a two hour event i am not talking about laying around for an hour and a half i am talking on your feet back and forth. these are things that any dogman would consider.

 

Re: famous cur dogs

For those of you who have not read 'Degrees of Gameness' by Tom Garner, give this a read. It may help some of you. Then again, most of you knuckleheads will never learn no matter how much information/knowledge is at your disposal... Like Joe Abraham said in his latest interview, "If these dogs could talk, they would be saying 'This dummy fucked me up'.

DEGREES OF GAMENESS by Tom Garner

If we are to agree that dogs can have different degrees of gameness (or curness, if you will) on different days and under different circumstances (and I believe that most of us have witnessed this fact), then we can't even be certain of the absolute gameness of a dog that we see die with his tail wagging, because we can only speculate about how he might have performed on a different day, at a different age, with a different opponent. We must bear in mind that a living thing, dog or man, is a biochemical dynamic entity that is in a constant state of flux. They and we are different now than we were even one minute ago. The conditions and tendencies that existed yesterday may be long gone tomorrow. So perhaps we should only say about a dog that he was game or cur on a particular day, under specific circumstances?

Also, we should ask ourselves what the objective of a match is? Is it to determine gameness? If it is, it is often a miserable failure. Most often we see one dog quit and the winner is most often still of undetermined gameness. How often does the winner die in the pit? If he doesnt, then he wasn't truly tested, was he? If there is only one degree of gameness and that degree is dead-gameness and we have game testing as our objective, then the irony is that just as we are proving the worth of our dog, we are proving our own stupidity as we are destroying our own worthy dog.

Maybe the objective of a match is simply to see which dog can scratch longer than the other dog, which relegates gameness to a rote as being but one of several significant ingredients.

Now if we are truly intending to be gameness fanatics, then matching is a relatively useless forum for us. The best method for breeding "game" dogs is to breed our prospects all we intend to, then test them to their death (with video camera rolling) and if they die right, raise their pups. If they are not, then euthanize their pups. Even better, let's have a team of medical experts present who can "revive" our clinicaly dead dogs so that they can be tested for "dead gameness" on another day, under other circumstances. One would think that a double-dead-game dog would be better than a dog that only died right once. In this way we can determine if a dead game performance by a dog was truly indicative of his genetic make-up and to ensure that he didn't just have a day in which he rose above his true worth, much like Buster Douglas when he fought Tyson.

I think, as have indicated at length elsewhere, that gameness (defined as the willingness to persevere against adversity) is a state (affected by numerous traits) that may vary to a significant degree within a dog from day to day, and certainly is present in different amounts from animal to animal. The fact that it is variable is amply demonstrated by the great degree of variability of time that matches last. Gameness is defined by a continuum that ranges from none to complete, from a willingness to endure only a little adversity to an acceptance of the worst kind of adversity.

The human mind attempts to reduce complex reality from infinite shades of gray to black and white simply because it gives us the illusion that we have a complete grasp of it. However it is a false comfort one that changes not one iota the reality of a multitude of gray shades.

Now it may be that we can say "I will not settle for anything short of dead game in my breeding stock", and that is an admirable objective. But to deny the accomplishment of a 3-hour dog that quits, by saying he is no different than a two minute cur is illogical and perhaps immoral as it cheats him of his credit. We might instead say, "I am so committed to breeding only dead game dogs that for my purposes, a three hour cur is no better than a two minute cur". I can accept that statement but to simply, unequivocally say they are the same is unacceptable.

Also, folks are fond of saying, The only dead game dog is a dead dog". The reality is that the dog was a dead game dog before he fought but his gameness was not proven to human satisfaction. The act of fighting does not create gameness. Gameness is a response potential, which is demonstrated in the fight not created in the fight Therefore there are in fact dead game dogs walking around as we speak, we just can't be sure which ones they are.





Subject: Degrees of Gameness by Tom Garner Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:04 pm If we are to agree that dogs can have different degrees of gameness (or curness, if you will) on different days and under different circumstances (and I believe that most of us have witnessed this fact), then we can't even be certain of the absolute gameness of a dog that we see die with his tail wagging, because we can only speculate about how he might have performed on a different day, at a different age, with a different opponent We must bear in mind that a living thing, dog or man, is a biochemical dynamic entity that is in a constant state of flux They and we are different now than we were even one minute ago. The conditions and tendencies that existed yesterday may be long gone tomorrow. So perhaps we should only say about a dog that he was game or cur on a particular day, under specific circumstances?

Also, we should ask ourselves what the objective of a match is? Is it to determine gameness? If it is, it is often a miserable failure. Most often we see one dog quit and the winner is most often still of undetermined gameness. How often does the winner die in the pit? If he doesnt, then he wasn't truly tested, was he? If there is only one degree of gameness and that degree is dead-gameness and we have game testing as our objective, then the irony is that just as we are proving the worth of our dog, we are proving our own stupidity as we are destroying our own worthy dog.

Maybe the objective of a match is simply to see which dog can scratch longer than the other dog, which relegates gameness to a rote as being but one of several significant ingredients.

Now if we are truly intending to be gameness fanatics, then matching is a relatively useless forum for us. The best method for breeding "game" dogs is to breed our prospects all we intend to, then test them to their death (with video camera rolling) and if they die right, raise their pups. If they are not, then euthanize their pups. Even better, let's have a team of medical experts present who can "revive" our clinicaly dead dogs so that they can be tested for "dead gameness" on another day, under other circumstances. One would think that a double-dead-game dog would be better than a dog that only died right once. In this way we can determine if a dead game performance by a dog was truly indicative of his genetic make-up and to ensure that he didn't just have a day in which he rose above his true worth, much like Buster Douglas when he fought Tyson.

I think, as have indicated at length elsewhere, that gameness (defined as the willingness to persevere against adversity) is a state (affected by numerous traits) that may vary to a significant degree within a dog from day to day, and certainly is present in different amounts from animal to animal. The fact that it is variable is amply demonstrated by the great degree of variability of time that matches last. Gameness is defined by a continuum that ranges from none to complete, from a willingness to endure only a little adversity to an acceptance of the worst kind of adversity.

The human mind attempts to reduce complex reality from infinite shades of gray to black and white simply because it gives us the illusion that we have a complete grasp of it However it is a false comfort one that changes not one iota the reality of a multitude of gray shades.

Now it may be that we can say "I will not settle for anything short of dead game in my breeding stock", and that is an admirable objective. But to deny the accomplishment of a 3-hour dog that quits, by saying he is no different than a two minute cur is illogical and perhaps immoral as it cheats him of his credit We might instead say. "I am so committed to breeding only dead game dogs that for my purposes, a three hour cur is no better than a two minute cur". I can accept that statement but to simply, unequivocally say they are the same is unacceptable.

Also, folks are fond of saying, The only dead game dog is a dead dog". The reality is that the dog was a dead game dog before he fought but his gameness was not proven to human satisfaction. The act of fighting does not create gameness. Gameness is a response potential, which is demonstrated in the fight not created in the fight Therefore there are in fact dead game dogs waking around as we speak, we just can't be sure which ones they are.

 

Re: famous cur dogs

"double-dead-game dog" LMFAO good read by O'l tg.

 

Re: famous cur dogs

shock on all 4's is the truth. He couldn't get up by himself but somehow when you physically put him on his feet he was able to stay up for 10 seconds for one more try.