...the STAFF cataylst...

I use it and know quite a few others who do. Sure- some may not be driving down the same avenues as the rest, but they work with what they have and the dogs are proven in many venues. the right "staff" blood may be the correct question...good posts and good research..the right people to ask are not hard to find EP.

 

Hey Bama. Were these staffs game too or just match quality? Both have their place to me! Every game dog ain't match worthy and vice verse. I would keep a destroyer that quit in a hard test if his ability was high enough to match. I just wouldn't breed him or her. I read a story the other day bout a half blue dog. Dog wrecks, we'll call him B, b's dog in a roll. Guy says "I'll sell her to you for 300. Bought. Dog won 4 then B got the ped, gets rid of the dog immediately! She loses 5 close to or lil over an hr I think. Long story short. Wit the amount she had already won them, I would have kept showin her!! Fr what I read, wit the right keep she was a beast. Different owner differnt keep for #5. These are performance animals and she performed! I just wouldn't have bred her.... My partner sent me the story from TheBook. I don't have a Facebook page so I can't send a link or anything, just a screenshot

 

Cnote honestly the man who had them was a true gambler first.He also had roosters and still does.But he wasn't worried bout proving he had the gamest , he just wanted your money and he was pretty dam good at gettin it.What he liked was leg breakers , a dog that would snap a front leg right off the bat if he got it and if you didn't pick up they would break the other...well u know what's next.

 

You BASTARD..........lol....

 

I heard of these HICKs line of game staffs that were on TV, and was wondering if anyone has ad any luck with them???

Seriosly...
The great lakes boast Fatality kennels, who has always had success and not too many people heard of them as they are lowkey...
A STAFF cornerstone on the foundation, but with staedy testing of that foundation the structure stands tall with other engineers to verify so,(NOT IN OUR HEAD)...
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [149374] :: FATALITY SAVAGE
Some might disagree, but I always considered the SARONA dogs to lean towards STAFF maybe cause thier size and ukc, but I am sure the ofrn committee would disagree...

Any how Fatality kennels was never blind and bulldogs built from scratch... Dogs from Giroux,Hall, Gaines,Duesette, etc...
Fatality proved thier purchases and added them if they worked, pedigrees with almost as many losses as wins, tested to the core...
These dogs sell themselves , no need to bomb the internet with pedigrees and false promises...


ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [149378] :: FATALITY EXCEDRIN
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [149385] :: 360 KNLS BUCK
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [164199] :: INDASTRY KENNELS BIG HERC
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [138564] :: FATALITY'S KWANZA
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [166503] :: FATALITY CRYPT AVENGER

These peds remind me of Dawnrest kennels, as they were not picky about what worked...
Loose or scatterbred success that creates its own family... I ADMIRE...

 

My kind of dogs lol! Game dogs are for the brood pen, unless they have more tools. If ability is high enough I would match, pre 76.

 

Interesting topic, it must be noted that Bob Stevens advocated the practice in his book. It is an issue I've had to confront in my time with these dogs. A significant number of the dogs I kept in my early years were bred down from a dog out of the UK King's Boots:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=405995
Who carried the blood of Alvin in his bottom side. However dogs down from boots tended to throw its fair share of blues blue brindles and merle.
http://dogarchive.kennel-apbt.com/details.php?id=150499 Shaka Zulu
http://dogarchive.kennel-apbt.com/details.php?id=146876 CH Smasher
In my island too there was a proliferation of Camelot and Land of Giants blood. From what I've seen those when crossed to gamestock create mean dogs there have been no shortage of human attacks and deaths by these hybrids. Some as pointed out do show to be freaks of nature but the inherent risks are just not worth it. Size as well makes these crosses less suitable for bulldogging since they could be huge.
It's interesting to note that even Mr Bill seemed to know something we all ignore or refute.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=10560 Philo Butcher Beddoe

 

Interesting read and thanks for the share...
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [37690] :: MACK'S KONG
read the notes on this beast...

I remember PITSTOPs first ads with those huge dogs runnung the mill, didnt know if it was Mr.bills blood... look at the w8...
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [10560] :: PHILO BUTCHER BEDDOE
If this blood worked for Winchester kannels and Pitstop, why isnt it still around??? why did they abandon it???

 

EP another notable sample. The guys from across the pond are more liberal with the use : GR CH and DOY Barney:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=413421

 

I like how the tiny bitch is bred, but dont understand why they would utilze her in a breeding like this...
Some good old Ed Crenshaw blood as well as touch of Carver on top, but was the rest enough of catalyst???
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [113499] :: 6 PACK PUNKS
Im sure they will retreave more being dual registered with cropped ears but...
Is the STAFF catalyst helping our blood, or hurting it???

 

There may be arguments for and against the use of the staff blood. According to Bob Stevens the blood can be used to correct the deficiencies of severe inbreeding, which could also be done by a simple outcross within the breed so that argument might be weak. If however we used the assumption based on the Captain's theory that a large percentage of dogs shown on paper to be purebred gamedogs are in fact "bushy, scorpion tailed curs" we could see why some may entertain the prospect. It was he who also put it forward that the AST might be more true bred as shown on paper. Returning to Bob Stevens' writings, he claimed that adding APBT to any of the mastiff type breeds brings that breed closer to its original function. From a breeding standpoint I think it is more the APBT that is used as a catalyst to enhance whatever it's added to. The Razor Edge dogs from what I've heard tend to pack more fire and we know some of the dogs that were used in their creation.
The known cases of titled performers coming out of these crosses can be on account of different reasons. Location might be a reason some of these types of breedings are made. Two guys in proximity with something resembling APBT do a breeding... Location also in terms of the career of the animal there are after all street champions, village champions, city champions, state, national, international and global champions. So the quality of the titles sometimes beg questions. However the main successes of these types can be largely attributed to the owners/handler betting on his own ability to bring one in shape and able to bring the bacon; sometimes the battle is more with self and having the confidence to take any half decent animal to a level based on one's understanding of sport science. There's also the guy who started with the 'PR' types and becomes so emotionally attached to some dog or dogs from the line that he refuse to accept the truth and keeps going forward always keeping a bit of it for nostalgia sake, all the while making excuses and giving unverifiable accounts .
My opinion is that the Gamedog serves as a catalyst to other breeds and not vice versa

 

I just can't see the logic at all in using Staff blood, it's like adding Collie to a Greyhound to make it go faster. Simple outcrossing will rid the deficiencies caused by severe inbreeding.

 

I agree with you Wally, but every fool has his story and I'm just considering perspectives for argument's sake.

 

The collie "/greyhound thing isn't relevant to this argument. Collie were never racers/hunters and I believe collies have always been shepherds. Why would I want a predatory herding dog??? Staffs used to fight, as a breed, APBT still do. I can see were a guy might have one of those leg breakin staffs Bama was talkin about and breedin to a game plug pit bulldog. His dogs, his call. Of all he wants is performance and gets it, is his method wrong? He's not sellin dogs. Just breedin and usin his own stock IMO. Would I knowingly buy one? Naw... Would I bet with one I seen go? Yep!

 

Usually in the case of Staff Bull Terriers in Europe ,,,it was APBT added SBT to improve them ... never seen or heard of any serious dog man adding SBT to the APBT line...

 

That's the thing though the Staff is a showdog, yes it's true it did used to fight.... In the disguise of the APBT.

 

You must understand that Bob Stevens was not a breeder and said that he was only speaking in theory. He did not have any practical knowledge or experience as a breeder....only things he read and things he picked up talking with others. He said this about himself.

There is a difference between theory and application. Bob said to understand that he was only suggesting possibilities for others to experiment with. In his same book he argued against scatter breeding dogs (APBT'S) because you would lose all consistency and end up having to start over because the percentages would be terrible.

You can end up with game dogs from crossing to AST/staff dogs....it has been proven. They are good dogs that anyone would be proud to own. But it is very rare and once you achieve it, you will not be able to replicate it very easy and perpetuate those traits over and over again with that dog.

Bet on it and see how you like the odds..........

 

great post starlion and osage, good interaction...
the theory is there... but the longer or more generations the distance is in cousins off bulldog and staff, will the staff light a fire????
or will too many generations of non working staffs instill what they have been doing for ever??? nothing...
In theory I rather take my chances with a cur bulldog, because pops kept them'a steady working...

 

lots of good info on this in the Wayne D Brown book.

 

A book that I would love to read, anybody have it for sale or trade???
Stedz can you share any of the info from the book with us???