Pedigrees, whats really relevant.

Ok another hot topic! In a day where unless you KNOW the source, pedigrees may only be worth the paper they are written on. Even if you have a reputable pegiree, where do you find the WRITTEN value of that dog. I know its just paper and a dog has to prove himself no matter what but when looking at a ped, how far back do you think is relevant to the given dog. Most say the first 4 generations, what do you all think?

I tend to think that past 4 generations you really get diluted in the traits passed along. This brings another question to mind. Strength of pedigree. IF you have a linebred/inbred pedigree can you look farther down the pedigree with a better sense of what you can expect? I would think so, and you?

 

If your line breeding, the bitch and stud should be representative of their line and far further back in their pedigree. So yes, I'd agree looking further back in a line bred dog's pedigree isn't a bad idea and should be representative of the dog's line as their parents should be representative of their line.

The point behind line breeding is to obtain consistency from your stock, thus each generation should represent their fathers and so on.

 

I couldn't agree more. I've always found it funny that people will say that after the first 4 gens nothing matters, when in a line bred or inbred dog, you could find a dog that shows up 5 times in the 5th generation maybe once or twice in the sixth and has a sibling thrown in there somewhere as well. If the breeder continued to breed true to that line, it would be easy to argue that that dog's characteristics would still show quite strongly in dogs produced today even though if you just looked at the first four generations you would have no idea the dog existed.

 

If you have read your pedigree successfully and have embarked upon a plan to build your own recognizable strain you should have several generations of line breeding accomplished before you need to think about the third pattern found in pedigrees, the out cross. Usually a breeder of an established strain will only out cross for a definite purpose. If you can gather enough information on the dogs in the out crossed pedigree, with some thought you can usually figure out what the breeder wanted to accomplish in his strain of dogs with an out cross. Often the initial results of an out cross utilizing two "excellent" animals exhibit many of the good points of both parents. When these pups hit the show ring and are successful, may breeders rush to make similar breedings. Unfortunately, without a clear cut purpose in mind, the resulting generations of this out cross will often show a great lack of uniformity - which will leave the less experienced breeders at a loss of what mating to make next. This only further helps to make the breed one of differing types in size and proportion. (sound familiar?)
In conclusion, let me say that it is essential for the beginning breeder to obtain some knowledge of genetics and also a complete understanding of the breed standard of the breed to which he is committed. Not until these two steps are taken can one be considered serious in his protection and advancement of a breed instead of just wanting to play the "game" of winning in the show ring.

 

In my opinion the first 2 generations (parents & grand parents) is what really counts..People who are "paper chasers" are the ones that will bring up/brag on the dogs in the pedigree some 4-6 generations back..

 

In my brood stock my 4th gen familey tree looks like a pice of bayhaya grass. so if I sold dogs you would have to look back to the 5th just to see another name. So some time you have to study alittle so you under stand what you have. J

 

I've seen dogs who's first 4 gens I couldn't recognize anything, but the 5th and 6th was pretty much all the same 4 (tants) dogs. The dog itself looked and had all the traits of a tants dog, though.

The first 4 generation are crucial, though. You want to make sure the first dogs in your ped are quality dogs. If most of the dogs in the first 3 are nothings, then there is no reason to even look at the 5th and 6th.

Sometimes there are a lot of 'unheard ofs' in the first 4 though. You may not have heard of them but alot of folks can vouch for them and thats when you may take a look at the 5th and 6th to see if there is rhyme and reason for the breeding.

 

I get what you are saying..But if all you (not you) can say check the fifth & sixth generation on my dog,...to me thats worthless..I do understand what you are saying though..Kind of like the saying,"Knowing where you've been, is knowing where your going"..

I would imagine that if you (Triple J) and I were talking dogs you wouldnt be talking about dogs that far back in one of your dogs ped,even if the dogs closer up were'nt "household names"..

Me personally though,I ask about the parents and grand parents of a dog that Im interested in..I could care less if said dog has ch. so & so 10 or 20x in 6 generations..I want to know how his sire & dam are,and both of their sires & dams..Thats it..

 

Thats how Trooper is bred....a lot of people know of the dogs in his first 4 gens so much so that a guy offered me $ to stud to his bitch i said man you don't even know what my dogs about but he stood behind "jump around" in the ped. Trooper looks real good though i hung 2 old socks where i will eventually have a spring pole and he is alreay out there pulling at it and shaking it i think he will love the SP once i get it up he is only 8 weeks so i got a few months btw i have the sock tethered to the fence with no sping

dad currently 51lbs

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=256942

mom====dads daughter currently 38lbs

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=203500

 

but if looking at the ped from the west coast you might not have heard of none of the dogs i know of a few of them that there stats has changed

 

Well ...according to PP.... what is important is the 14 dogs that are behind the dog in question ... (the first 3 generations for all you slow brained folk out there)


and next... another quote from a great dogman.....

Pups often don't come out like their sire and dam, they come out like their
grand sire and grand dam and great grand sire and great grand dam.
This is why you read pedigrees and follow bloodlines.

(tell me the SDJ handle of who said that ill give you a cookie)

Im no brainiac.....but it looks like the first 3-generations is what matters.....



and tripJ.... i get what you mean... but those traits of what you breed have minimal correlation of the dogs 5-6 generations back..... but the ones that you have bred and checked in the past 3 generations are where the traits are coming from..... you know what I mean?

 

I pay most attention, to the 2nd and 3rd generation. Breed the best representatives together, because if the breeding works, the sire and dam will be you're 2nd generation where traits are pulled from. It's also my belief, the determining factor for who and what a dog will be, comes mostly from the grandparents. Although, they will take after the parents looks. The majority of the time, they seem to take after the grand dam.

You get the average of the line when breeding, 99% of the time. If the first 4 generations are all SOLID dogs, chances are two similar bred dogs will put out a few good ones. The more consistently, you breed to good dogs, the better your raised average will be, and thus the quality of your animals.

Very few breedings need to be studied back in the 6th-7th. Some extremely tight line/family breedings are the exception.

 

What I mean is you would have no idea what started my dogs if you did not have a 6 gen ped. Yes my name is in front and alot of people know what the about time dogs are but if I sold out you would have no idea what way to breed them if You did not know they were bullyson or happyjack. thats what Im sayin and I know alot of people that have had dogs for 20 or so years are the same way. look at some of the MIMS dogs in the ped above if you only had 2 gen you would never know what you had. but truth be told if you didnot stick them you really dont know what you have any way. Belive that! J

 

so my pedigree should look pretty good to someone that know of the dogs in there when look at it i say he is not tight red boy but predominately red boy/ snooty dog

 

hey J, what do you think of dogs coming down from cracker jack? i've got an offer in on a dog that's really tight cracker jack on top and double bred six bits on bottom. the sire is woods' crow. went with cracker jack simply for the midnight cowboy blood. not to take away from cracker jack though. but i also think midnight cowboy to be one of the best bullyson offspring. no losses and ROM. i believe only honeybunch shares the same standing. seven generations of top notch bulldogs: boudreaux Eli 2xw, bullyson; 2xw and 1xgl. Midnight Cowboy; Ch. and ROM with no losses. Happy Jack was a Gr. Ch. with no losses. Cracker Jack achieved ROM also. Gr. Ch. Reddicks Herman won't be left out as well as Gr. Ch. Lee's Candyman. got my fingers crossed right now. L

 

They are better than most and as good as any. You cant go wrong with a well bred honest bulllyson dog. the pre 76' wins you posted is a un realistic number. Those dogs were weekend warriors. I would say a better number is about three times that. Dont cut anything oldman Ramsey bred short all the arty cherry dogs were good reps of the blood line. Those dogs are not as well known as they were back when, Now you have all the fads of the day. But you can belive I would feed 10 acres of them if it was not so tabo now adays. Those dogs won! and in a timely maner. I will allways have one some place. Also they cross like coffe and cream when you cross them with some Right handman boyles stuff. YIS J

 

This reply got me thinking. If you had two seperate breeders (A and B) who had a dog similary bred by the same dogs but in the further back generations (6-10 gens). Each breeder bred differently from those original dogs. Breeder "A" has a male thats a little loosely linebred but has some of the same dogs in his ped as breeder "B"s bitch has but in his 4th-8th generations. Breeder "B"s bitch was inbred in gen 1(father/daughter) and tightly linebred from gen 2-6, then has the same dogs as breeder "A"s male but in the 6-10 gen. In a breeding like this could you get traits/qualities from the 6-10 gen in the offspring based on how the sire and dam are bred? I hope this isnt to confusing. Confused myself typing it out.lol

 

imho,the pedigree papers(if correct) should be like a guideline as to what you are buying.are you going to buy a pup from say,a 6xL?or take a chance on one that 1 or both of its parents havnt see a seen anything other than a square meal!! true enough the more knowledgable folk say papers dont mean nothing.but,when was the last time anyone ever bought one of these type of dogs,in a serious way,and DIDNT ask how it was bred or what was the pedigree??the pedigree does matter.it just doesnt 100% guarentee it will be like the dogs behind it!

 

If you are planning on maintaining a "type" of dog then the pedigree means more than you can imagine. The 1st few generations are the most important but the foundation (just like a house) holds everything up to where it stands in modern times. I would rather see winners in every generation all the way back to 1900 than see 2 winning generations up front and unknown breeding between here and the beginning of the breed. When you as the breeder have maintained 6 or more generations of the line it is at this point that you can actually see what it is that you are feeding on your yard, as all those other names before yours could be wrong. Its a shame that so many men have proven that they can't be trusted with the truth of their breeding, in a perfect world we would all be better off and so would the breed.

NGK

 

well said NGK