looking for recommended breeders of pure blue nose apbt pups NO BULLYS!!!!!

brooklynboy · Aug 13, 2012

3MTA3 said: ↑

The History of Blue Dogs

The History Of the American Pitbull Terrier written by Wayne D Brown. Page 25, and 26 Article contribution "The History of Blue Dogs in APBT's and AmStaff's", By Jack Turner. (Chtnjack, South Carolina, The History of Blue Dogs in APBT's and AmStaff's. By Jack Turner - MPBP Pitbull Community Forum)

In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he note's that in the late 1930's one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. Jeff had punished Imp severely around the head and nose and Tudor picked him up. However, he scratched Imp and he went across with his nose bumping the ground, unable to get his head up, but he took a foothold on Jeff. Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936.

The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Staffordshire terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs. The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers weren't penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them can't stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier? .

Whether or not people want to believe it, blue is a legitimate color in the American Pit Bull Terrier gene pool as evidenced and show further more by the Blue Paul, or sometimes called blue Poll. A Scottish strain now extinct, but whose descendants clearly live on in today's blue dogs.

These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshire's of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch.

The dogs were popular with the gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull and terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan.

In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England reported that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s".

Many people claim that the Blue Paul is now extinct. It may very well be extinct in its pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachusetts. They fought at Catch weight. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a Blue Paul.

If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline was surly continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland as well. Brown also writes in his book that W.C. Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's) Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds, and another Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. Several pages later he writes "As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line".

Someone new to the breed always ask what the difference is between an AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, and a UKC or ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier? When told to the truth, the true history behind the breed most say they don't fight their dogs so why should they even have to know all that stuff? The truth is, if you own a Staffordshire or a American Pit Bull Terrier, it is irresponsible of you not to know the truth, the true history behind the breed.

In Richard Pascoe's book, "The American Staffordshire Terrier" he mentions that there are five major lines in the foundation of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Tacoma, X-pert, Ruffian, Crusader, and "California" which is not actually a line, but a combination of lines. The Tacoma was developed by Charles Doyle and Al Brown beginning with the whelping of Tacoma Jack in 1927. The Tacoma line is influenced by Corvino blood early in its history. The Tacoma line is known for its courage and working ability.

The X-Pert line traces its pedigrees back to Colby, Feeley, Corrington, Tudor and Morris. Alberta and Cliff Ormsby began the line with the whelping of Ormsby's Madge in 1930. The Ruffian line was started by Clayton Harriman in 1938 with the whelping of The Ruffian, bred by F C Klump. The Ruffian line was influential in the development of many other lines, notably E C Ringold's Gallant line, beginning with CH Gallant Ruff and the Har-wyn line of Peggy Harper which finds its foundations in the breeding efforts of Harriman and Whittaker. One of her greats was CH Sky King of Har-Wyn ( half X-Pert). The California lines were strongly influenced by Ruffian and Gallant. Early breeders appearing in California pedigrees include Steele, Gregory, Freese, Farley, Wiswall and Harrison. CH Harrison's Bozo boy was bred by RC Steele and whelped in 1936. The Chatworth Kennels of Ray and Ina Harris include dogs of Freese, Harrison and Wakefield derivation. Rossmore's Naughty Knight, who sired the foundation of the Crusader line, was bred by Gladys Smith. The Crusader line was started in 1950 by Ike and Jean Stinson. In 1955, Smith's breeding of CH Rossmore's Naughty Knight x CH Gallant Susie Q produced CH Knight Crusader, CH Knight Bomber and CH Knight Patroller. All of these dogs played a major role in the development of the Crusader line. The development of all other kennels in the breed come from combinations of these original foundation lines. Notably Sertoma, Archer, Sierra, Tryarr, Willynwood, White Rock, to name a few.

The foundation of the X-Pert line began in 1932 with Bennett's Buck x Ormsby's Madge. Ormsby's Madge (Corrington's Bennetts Mack x Bennetts Queen) Corringtons Bennetts Mack (Corringtons Tiger Jim Jr x Corringtons Mae Rose) Corringtons Mae Rose was a Tudors Jack II daughter. Her dam, Corrington's Jenny Queen was a Colby bitch. (Colby's Dan x Colbys Blinkey). Bennetts Queen was Colby through her dam, Sharon Madge (Pitts Duke x Pitts Bebe) If you trace the pedigree back two or three generations from there, you will find Colbys Disby, Colbys Bess, Colbys Galtie, Colbys Nancy, Colbys Roger, Colbys Pansy, and Colbys Sally. The X-Pert bloodline is one of oldest in AmStaffs. It was started in 1930 by Clifford & Alberta Ormsby. They lived in Hornell, NY. Clifford Ormsby was 25 years old, and Alberta was 22 when they began their breeding program. The foundation bitch of the X-Pert bloodline is Ormsby's Madge. Cliff bought her in Texas.

Clifford Ormsby: "...I started with this great breed when you could buy a Pit Bull pup for $5.00. Many times this pup had flat feet, narrow chest, no brisket, bowed legs, fiddle front, cow-hocks, was undershot and had an unreliable temperament. You could shop around and find some desirable ones but it was a problem to find good dominant breeders of quality...."

Ormsby's Madge was sired by famous pitbull Bennett's Mack, who was also known as Corrington's Mack C. Bennett's Mack was Corrington breeding. His bloods were a cross of Smith & Tudor's lines. Both lines had influence of old Henry bloodline that was developed by Frank G.Henry in 1890. But Tudor's dogs were mostly black part of the Henry line, when Charles Smith's dogs were more of the red part of the Henry line and more outcrossed than Tudor's. Tudor's part of Bennett's Mack pedigree was Tudor's Jack II, son of the great Tudor's Black Jack 16xW. In 1930's Tudor's gamedogs were as a sign of success. Earl Tudor of Oklahoma, or Oklahoma Kid as most dogmen of that time called him, was just 22 years old in 1915 when he won with Jack Swift. Earl became well known dogman all over the country in 1920's with his 16 times winner Black Jack dog and 9 times winner Black Jack Jr. There were many breeders in that time who decide to use Tudor's stuff in their breedings. Corrington was one of these breeders of that time. Ok, back to Ormsby's Madge... Her dam was Bennett's Queen, a cross of Hogan's & Pitts' lines. Hogan line was built on Henry blood. Some of Charles Smith's breedings are behind Hogan's too. Pitts' line was mostly old Colby's bloods with some Henry.

Clifford Ormsby was born in Hornell, NY on August 24, 1905. Alberta also was born in Hornell 3 years later, on June 29, 1908. They were good friends in fact they grew up together a couple of streets apart. Young Cliff had about every animal there was to have. His first dogs were not purebred, and Cliff wanted to have a purebred dog that had spirit. Shortly after they were married Clifford & Alberta decided to take a pure pitbull. In 1930 Cliff went to Leonard,Texas, he took the dog, that he wanted. This was a female from W.F.Bennett's breeding, out of the famous pitbull dog Bennett Mack & Bennett Queen. The name of this female pup is well known to many Am Staff breeders, ORMSBY'S MADGE. It was the start, a Great start!

In 1938 Clifford built a kennel. It was the very modern kennel for that time. There was a water heating system in the kennel floor. He put hot water system himself. When Clifford spoke about his kennel, he said: "Dr. Byer ( Ormsby's veterinarian) come down and asked, "Who built this kennel, who made this kennel for you?" I said, "I did!" He said that," this is a good layout for a small kennel." The heating in the floor, that's the most economical heating too. You see, you've got to put it in right. This is six to eight inches on center, I think three quarter inch wide. I know there are about seventy elbows in it. It has two units, there was no sense in that because I never divided it. I always used the whole thing. I have a pressure pump. I can put it on automatically...... "

In the beginning of Cliff & bert's Staffordshire Terrier breeding, Cliff wasn't interested in "showing" of their dogs. Alberta changed his mind though. She said, "If we're going to have dogs, I'm going to show". The first dogs they shipped to Willfred Brandon. Alberta was very interested in handling their dogs herself. And the first super champion of the X-Pert family, shown by Alberta in many dog shows was the legendary Ch. X-Pert Brindle Biff. He was the favorite dog of Clifford, Alberta & their daughter, Dorothy. When Peggy Doster asked Alberta, "What is the name of the best dog or bitch you ever bred?" Alberta said: "Biff. He was my first dog. I suppose I'm partial. You know, first show dog. I took him to shows all over the country. I showed him all over. I took him all over the place & he won all over the country. I'd go in the ring and people would say:" There goes that woman, again, with that dog".

Alberta was licensed to judge Stafs & Boxers. She began to judging in '40'. In 1995 Peggy Doster asked Alberta: "Why did you decide to begin judging?" Alberta said this: "It got me out to California and it got me away from cleaning up kennels at home. It wasn't long ago that they wanted to know if I would come out there and judge the dogs. They had read on their catalog that I had been out there in 1979. Wouldn't I look cute....trying to judge dogs. .....Boxers and Stafs and any breed I can quality for, but I don't want to. You know, too much for me, I don't want to get out there and get sick or something, you know."

Alberta: " I was out in California, judging, and I had Am Staff in the ring that was all chewed up in his head. I said, "This dog was in fight. That was in 49', I think. And he said: "Yes, he had a fight yesterday, they fought him." And I said "He did? He's all chewed up." I said, "Will he shake hands with me?" He said, "Yeah, but he shakes with his hind leg." He stuck his hind leg up to me and shook hands."
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thank you so much this was the best answer i got all day

gh32 · Aug 13, 2012

brooklynboy said: ↑

on google there was quite a few links to yahoo answers were some people were asking what made a game bred pit not fit for a house hold pet and no i did not notice how to identify it.....how would i?
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The only problem with Yahoo answers is the people may or may not know what they're talking about,I could go on and give instructions to brain surgery but my advice would be to not listen to my advice on that subject,lol A game bred APBT is doable for the right people in the right circumstances.They are an energetic breed that needs exercise,so being cooped up all the time isn't good.They're best for one pet homes or homes that can keep them separated. Considering what they were originally bred for,animal aggression is to be expected.Animal aggression does not mean human aggression but can still make you pretty unpopular with the neighbors if your dog kills their pet.In several areas the animal control officers will even put your dog down for it. If you own a APBT,the humane society is not your friend. I don't appreciate the bully bred dogs at all,but as watered down as these are they may very will be animal aggressive.Less likely but still very possible,the only difference is the game bred dogs will be much better at it. I've got several APBT's but I keep them seperated from other animals all i can and even then i find oppossums and other animals dead in the chainspots,and the occasional stray dog.So even if your dog is contained if another loose animal gets into the wrong spot,there could be a problem. But with all that said if you own a cat,several breeds might be cat killers. The best way to know how a dog would be around animals is with a grown dog so you know how it is.There's no telling with a puppy.All in all,the APBT is a great breed,and i always plan on having them but they are very time consuming,and if you live with close neighbors are more problems than with other breeds.I can't advise every new owner to get a bully,mainly cause I really don't like the breeding of bullies,but the game bred ones are a handful.

brooklynboy · Aug 13, 2012

gh32 said: ↑

The only problem with Yahoo answers is the people may or may not know what they're talking about,I could go on and give instructions to brain surgery but my advice would be to not listen to my advice on that subject,lol A game bred APBT is doable for the right people in the right circumstances.They are an energetic breed that needs exercise,so being cooped up all the time isn't good.They're best for one pet homes or homes that can keep them separated. Considering what they were originally bred for,animal aggression is to be expected.Animal aggression does not mean human aggression but can still make you pretty unpopular with the neighbors if your dog kills their pet.In several areas the animal control officers will even put your dog down for it. If you own a APBT,the humane society is not your friend. I don't appreciate the bully bred dogs at all,but as watered down as these are they may very will be animal aggressive.Less likely but still very possible,the only difference is the game bred dogs will be much better at it. I've got several APBT's but I keep them seperated from other animals all i can and even then i find oppossums and other animals dead in the chainspots,and the occasional stray dog.So even if your dog is contained if another loose animal gets into the wrong spot,there could be a problem. But with all that said if you own a cat,several breeds might be cat killers. The best way to know how a dog would be around animals is with a grown dog so you know how it is.There's no telling with a puppy.All in all,the APBT is a great breed,and i always plan on having them but they are very time consuming,and if you live with close neighbors are more problems than with other breeds.I can't advise every new owner to get a bully,mainly cause I really don't like the breeding of bullies,but the game bred ones are a handful.
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separating the cat and the dog is easy because my room in the house is in the basement and the cat never comes down here if the dog was to come up the stairs with me it was obv that i would first make sure the cat is somewere safe from the dog i have a fence around the lawn outside so no worry about somebody getting their pet killed unless it came into my yard walking the dog could be a bit of a pain if he is not friendly toward other dogs but i am prepaired to take that responsibility....if i do find a good breeder and actually do get one of these puppies i plan to have him and the get spend some time together under my supervision while he is small so just maybe he can see that the cat is also a member of the house and not a chew toy but like you said not so easy to tell as pups and i know exactly what you mean with yahoo answers

SacRedboyOwner · Aug 13, 2012

How big is that fence? Keep in mind these dogs are athletic and can jump.

Lee D · Aug 13, 2012

http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=56855
http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=31155
http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=19446
http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=29681

stickys are a good start, you got alot to learn

brooklynboy · Aug 13, 2012

SacRedboyOwner said: ↑

How big is that fence? Keep in mind these dogs are athletic and can jump.
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cannot lie it is only about 3-4 feet im not too sure how high these dogs can jump but knowing dogs im sure it can probably clear it im guessing

Lee D · Aug 13, 2012

brooklynboy said: ↑

cannot lie it is only about 3-4 feet im not too sure how high these dogs can jump but knowing dogs im sure it can probably clear it im guessing
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these dogs can clear 6' fences...this is the kinda thing i was talking about. learning that the hardway can be very expensive.
it'll cost you money and possibly a dog

brooklynboy · Aug 13, 2012

Lee D said: ↑

http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=56855
http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=31155
http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=19446
http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=29681

stickys are a good start, you got alot to learn
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thank you for the links lee very helpful to especial the "how to prevent a fight" thread i am sorry if we got off wrong

Lee D · Aug 13, 2012

brooklynboy said: ↑

thank you for the links lee very helpful to especial the "how to prevent a fight" thread i am sorry if we got off wrong
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no problem...most on here know im a bit of a smart ass. lol...read them all and you still wont know enough. hands on experience is your best bet, and if you dont know anyone with dogs, attend an ADBA show and meet some folks. when owners speak up and talk dogs, listen alot and talk very little.

gh32 · Aug 13, 2012

brooklynboy said: ↑

cannot lie it is only about 3-4 feet im not too sure how high these dogs can jump but knowing dogs im sure it can probably clear it im guessing
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They can clear 4 feet easy,I keep mine on a chain unless i'm doing something with them,but I don't know what your regulations are where you're at.

SacRedboyOwner · Aug 13, 2012

brooklynboy said: ↑

cannot lie it is only about 3-4 feet im not too sure how high these dogs can jump but knowing dogs im sure it can probably clear it im guessing
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Yea a pit will clear that size fence easily.. As Lee said, you could loose a dog making that mistake. Keep reading about the breed and how to keep the dog so you can illuminate some of those mistakes when you actually get a dog

brooklynboy · Aug 13, 2012

my best bet would to just either go to home depot and buy a taller fence maybe 6ft im guessing

Lee D · Aug 13, 2012

brooklynboy said: ↑

my best bet would to just either go to home depot and buy a taller fence maybe 6ft im guessing
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chainspot man... its easier to setup, contains a dog as well as any kennel will, and it doesnt cost as much $$$$

ive seen 6-8 month old pups scale 6' kennels that didnt have a top on em

brooklynboy · Aug 13, 2012

Lee D said: ↑

no problem...most on here know im a bit of a smart ass. lol...read them all and you still wont know enough. hands on experience is your best bet, and if you dont know anyone with dogs, attend an ADBA show and meet some folks. when owners speak up and talk dogs, listen alot and talk very little.
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i know what you mean by i can read them all and still not know enough every dog will also have its own personality like a human i am guessing as well i do know quite a few with pits not 100% on if they are AKC,UKC,or ADBA but i have asked them how they dealt with other days when coming across and how they have dealt with other house hold pets and i get mostly positive answers except for 1 because his dog just hates everything and everyone except my friend (the owner)

brooklynboy · Aug 13, 2012

Lee D said: ↑

chainspot man... its easier to setup, contains a dog as well as any kennel will, and it doesnt cost as much $$$$
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i was thinking about that but i dont want the poor guy to be limited to only 10ft or so of the yard i want him to be able to run around in it and enjoy it without being chained or leashed up all the time but i would 100% need that fence first haha

Lee D · Aug 13, 2012

brooklynboy said: ↑

i was thinking about that but i dont want the poor guy to be limited to only 10ft or so of the yard i want him to be able to run around in it and enjoy it without being chained or leashed up all the time but i would 100% need that fence first haha
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a 10' chain gives a dog 300+ ft of area ( area of a circle...pie x radius squared)....thats the same as a 15 x 20 foot kennel

brooklynboy · Aug 13, 2012

Lee D said: ↑

a 10' chain gives a dog 300+ ft of area ( area of a circle...pie x radius squared)....thats the same as a 15 x 20 foot kennel
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not that you put it that way that isnt so bad either well played lee you win this one lol i never thought of it like that and that is a veru good point (not being a wise ass) lol

Lee D · Aug 13, 2012

brooklynboy said: ↑

not that you put it that way that isnt so bad either well played lee you win this one lol i never thought of it like that and that is a veru good point (not being a wise ass) lol
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when at the farm, my dogs have a 20 foot chain and they seem like they are all over the yard. just get ya a SOLID collar or they might as well be running loose...no walmart shit. stillwater is good stuff at a good price.

Vicki · Aug 13, 2012

My dog cleared an 8' fence last week.

Lee D · Aug 13, 2012

3MTA3 said: ↑

My dog cleared an 8' fence last week.
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and then what did it do? LOL

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