Clouse/Crenshaw by way of Steinberg

Thecableguy messaged me and asked me about the Steinberg dogs, and I thought the answer would interest most: What were the Steinberg dogs like in terms of smarts, strength, gameness, etc.?

Steinberg (I'll call him Arnie) along with Freddie Jones had what I consider to be the best dogs in California during the seventies -- Freddie stressing the Crenshaw stuff and Arnie the Clouse. Turns out Patrick and I were just starting out long about then, and we two had a ringside seat.

Arnie and Patrick were semi-partners in buying and owning a dog or two, the old Tater (Clouse) dog and Diamond (one from Carver). Arnie had matched Tater into one considered unbeatable at the time, a hard-biter named Rastus, and Tater outgamed him in a long one.

Tater was the basis for both Arnie's and Patrick's yards -- but then the two went off in completely opposite directions. Arnie, his Diamond dog having been beaten by Freddie Jones's highly talented Ch. Major (Crenshaw blood), started combining the Tater/Major lines. The result turned out to be tricky. That combo at its best made for dogs so talented as to be virtually unbeatable (thanks to the Crenshaw blood) -- but at times a bit spooky and undependable (also thanks to the Crenshaw blood). Spooky how? Dogs that do well in their own yard, for example, but can't travel.

That, I think, describes Arnie's dogs quite well toward the end of his stay in the dogs -- top notch at best, iffy at worst. I think it was a sort of "trap" Arnie had fallen into -- that "compromise" between top gameness and top talented. Again, when it worked, it was beautiful. But then the disappointment of, say, a dog that wins decisively in his own backyard -- but then only fights defensively when traveling.

Arnie being my mentor, I too fell into that same trap -- certain and sure of my Clouse blood but justifiably suspicious of that highly intelligent/sensitive/talented Crenshaw by way of Ch. Major.

It was that combination that lost for me against Bobby Hall. I had a talented little male out my Tina and Sly Fox (son of Major). His name was Pazzo and he'd won decisively for me in our own backyard. But we had to travel to get to Bobby. The fight itself was the strangest of fiascoes. My Pazzo got hit in his corner from the get-go, didn't even go out to meet Bobby's dog. And from that moment on -- I knew Pazzo wouldn't scratch!

But here's the strange part. Pazzo, even just fighting defensively, pretty much ripped Bobby's dog a new one for over an hour, staying on the ear and staying out of trouble. He wasn't a cur, my Pazzo, just spooky that way. Till came scratching time, and of course Pazzo wouldn't go. And when it was all over and Bobby's dog scratched (just to show he would), he belonged to Pazzo all over again.

Strange, and even funny in a way, though not at the time. Bobby's dog was literally wrecked while my Pazzo had just the smallest of cuts on a front leg. But scratching being the name of the game, the outcome was inevitable. Sigh.

And so it was for Arnie's dogs in the Seventies and till he got out of the dogs -- wonderful at their best and iffy at their worst. Patrick of course took the opposite tack, stuck with the strictly game strains. Probably Patrick did the right thing. But still, had one of Patrick's best faced one of Arnie's best, I'd have bet on Arnie. Why? Because Arnie's Diamond proved dead-game against Freddie Jones's Ch. Major and couldn't put a tooth in him -- and because Major, too, was a game dog.

Name yer poisons, boys. Arnie and Patrick did.

 

Very Nice write up. Talk about straddling a fine line, funny how life takes us from a similar start point, to TOTALLY different directions in the end.

 

Freddy, I've heard of dogs doing poorly when traveling to other states with different temps and humidity levels, which affects their normal hydration, but never when simply leaving their own yard.

Interesting.

 

Interesting. That reminds me of a thread I read earlier on here. Game Vs Mouth. I believe Patrick went in the right direction given game is what separates the breed from all others. i guess when it comes down to it, game alone is the difference between a winner and a champion. Meaning game alone might not get the job done consistently. Their has to be some ability with it to be consistent.

 

Hell yeah!

 

Did any of the blood cary on into dogs of today?
I know Patrics blood is obviously influential to many yards today.
New info and new things to look into are always cool. Thanks for taking the time to share info from days gone by.

 

That's true TDK.

 

That was a nice read. I have also heard of dogs that would only compete in their back yard and also dogs that would only compete in front of very small crowds(five or fewer questions). My take on the write up is this if the Arnie dogs were hit or miss in the traveling aspect why didnt they try to tackle this issue? I believe Arnie could have had better results by hitting the highway and traveling to school his prospects. The ones that couldnt perform should have been culled and the one that did well at home and on the road should have been shown and bred thus working toward eradicating the traveling problem. Jmo.

 

years ago i seen them win not to far from home but if they left that surroundings they wouldn't do anything . and damn them dogs that don't won;t to be seen they suck lol . you will know if they don't like people or certain things . but that damn traveling and it's fun until i get there and oh no i don't know where i'm at is just plumb mean .

 

In response, let me repeat what I only just private messaged to Cableguy:

To my way of thinking, there's no such thing as a Steinberg line of dogs. He got out of the dogs too quickly for that. What he had was a few very good dogs to BUILD a line from -- a few good isolated dogs. These few were the Diamond dog he got from Carver, the Tater dog (heavy Clouse), and Sly Fox out of Ch. Major (Crenshaw). What he did was to START building a line of his own -- basically good game Clouse blood combining with highly talented Crenshaw blood by way of Major. In short, it was all in the works, more or less in the experimental stage. As far as I know, I'm the only breeder to have continued on with this experiment once Arnie had gotten out.

As for my own dogs to have come out of that experiment, the finest of the bunch was probably my Red Danger -- out of my Tuffy (daughter to Tater) and Sly Fox, then in my possession. Red Danger was, arguably, the best dog in the country at one time, just one match short of Grand Champion, and he'd gone through some good ones. His fifth time out he died within the first few moments of the fight. Gotta dish a bit of dirt here at ol' Bert Clouse who conditioned him for the fight. Clouse overworked the dog, and that was all she wrote. "He's the hardest worker I ever saw," Clouse said of the dog -- which is the same as saying he worked the dog harder than any dog he'd ever conditioned.

Needless to say, Red Danger wasn't in my possession at the time.

Forgive me for that moment of bitterness on my part?

As to Arnie, that was the line and combo he was working toward, that Clouse gameness and that Crenshaw talent. Again, the best dogs out of that combination were nothing short of wonderful. The unfortunate part was that maybe only one in ten measured up and nine out of ten didn't -- maybe even 19 out of twenty. Not good odds, not good at all. Sort of a case of all or nothing at all. But that's the direction my OWN mentor, Arnie Steinberg, took and so did I. Our eye on that one wonderfully talented and game dog out of ten or twenty. And in the final analysis, the experiment turned into one great case of frustration on both our parts. Patrick took the right path, Arnie and I didn't. Still, no telling what we might have eventually come up with, Arnie and I, had we a few more decades of breedings behind us. A whole line of question marks there.

 

Good post well worth reading, nice break from all the bickering on the other treads thanks keep them coming.

 

I enjoy the post sir.What made you get away from this line after your success with Red Danger?Just not consistant enough or frustration with the numbers.

 

Sly Fox and his progeny were a great question mark in so many ways -- maybe too smart and sensitive to be considered "proper" pit bulldogs.

Sly Fox out of Ch. Major never made a scratch in his life. Which is to say he never started -- and a dog has to start before he can quit. Foxy just didn't want to fight, had no will to win. But he'd fight when pressed -- or rather he'd PROTECT himself. And for a dog that never started, he sure stopped a lot of dogs -- even one that Carver had just sold to Ronnie Jackson. That's just how talented Foxy was. He was a shadow in there, the finest of ear dogs, and -- even fighting defensively -- I never saw him make a turn. Had Foxy been willing to scratch, he'd have been virtually unbeatable.

But alas, so many of his progeny were as "flukey" as he was. They'd either just fight defensively, as he did. Or they'd fight gamely in their own yard but wouldn't travel. Or... ? Great question marks, these dogs. But when they were good, they were very, very good.

 

It wasn't my success with Red Danger at all. He was one in a litter of ten -- and the only one with epilepsy. AND SO I GAVE HIM AWAY! Later, when the dog had grown and Steinberg saw him fight -- Steinberg had to have him. "The best dog I've ever seen," Arnie said.

And if you don't think I spent a lot of time back then kicking myself in the ass for giving the dog away, you aren't thinking.

 

..i have a bitch,,like that outside her comfort zone she drop like a stone,,friend has sister to her,,also same in their own zone ,,,great....real one-man-dog's...very protective over owners/etc...good read...fritz...