Clouse blood

Iron Mike · Jan 25, 2014

All is well but man it is cold this year... I hope you all are doing good. Hope to see you again in the spring. Take care.......

Bones1 · Jan 30, 2014

Thanks the litter quoted wouldn't be able to be registered but a red nose out of the litter would be ...with the right toe nail color of course. What's the OFRNR stance on white toe nails?

Iron Mike · Jan 31, 2014

Red is recessive to every color but white. White will be dominate. So how could you stop it? Most of the time white on the feet, the toe nails will be white on one or most.

Iron Mike · Jan 31, 2014

Oh ya I promise to up load a picture of a "pure" Clouse female I owned. Both sire and dam was bred by Bert.
Here she is, her name is Java:

bamaman · Jan 31, 2014

I am gone check her out when i get home and can see a bigger pisture.But so far from what i can see on a smaller picture she is a nice lookin dog Mike.

Mallard · Apr 19, 2014

Crazy Horse wrote:
The person who posted that pedigree (Mr. Stabber Clouse) has an ax to grind with a certain breeder and after I post the correct pedigree.
Make no mistake this is the CORRECT pedigree as told by the breeder!
**Crazy Horse, I don*t have an axe (not ax) to grind with JS.
One thing that I have come to know about JS is that he likes to stir up controversy between people that he thinks will take the bait and then sits back and watches things as they unfold.
JS knew that by your nature, if he said the breeding of Stabber contained blood from your yard, you would pop your cork at every opportunity.
He also knew that I would resolutely stay firm to the truth, as I know it from him.
He told you that Stabber contains a portion of blood from your yard.
Knowing James, I believe he told you that.
He told me that Stabber is down from pure KZB blood (which the papers state).
I asked him why he would tell you such a thing and he casually answered, “Just to “F” with him! What he gets out of pulling the puppet strings I*ll never know.
So the world keeps turning.

Crazy Horse wrote:
The breeder of Mr Stabber Clouse has said many times the best dog he has ever owned or bred is this dog which chapped the hide of the poster of the INCORRECT pedigree.
**To set the record straight, I am foremost a fan of good dogs, regardless of where they come from. If I don*t personally support a particular breeder, that has nothing to do with the quality of that breeder*s dogs. I*d rather not “buy in” to adolescent practices, as that is not my style.
From my perspective, if a breeder or owner raises up a dog to achieve good things, then that is good for the breed overall. Promoting the breed and keeping dogs true to their heritage is an honorable thing.
Because your strings are the easiest to pull he (JS) loads you up with what he thinks will make you fluff your feathers and sure enough, you fly with it.
Man, he*s got your number!

So that you are hearing it from the source, if the dog in question is in fact the best dog he ever saw, then congratulations as JS knows a good dog when he sees one.
Of course, that*s not what he told me but I really don*t care to know.

Until next time, keep scratching!
Mallard

Mallard · Apr 19, 2014

Java was bred by Michael Martin, as was her Dam.

mccoypitbulls · Apr 20, 2014

Very interesting indeed.

Iron Mike · Apr 20, 2014

Mallard said: ↑

Java was bred by Michael Martin, as was her Dam.
Click to expand...

Mike Page, Java was bred by him but her sire wasn't, Clouse Red Bomber. Her mother was bred by Bert.
Please reframe about posting about a man you meet once at a dog show and never been to his yard or around him at the [].

CrazyHorse · Apr 20, 2014

Mallard said: ↑

Crazy Horse wrote:
The person who posted that pedigree (Mr. Stabber Clouse) has an ax to grind with a certain breeder and after I post the correct pedigree.
Make no mistake this is the CORRECT pedigree as told by the breeder!
**Crazy Horse, I don*t have an axe (not ax) to grind with JS.
One thing that I have come to know about JS is that he likes to stir up controversy between people that he thinks will take the bait and then sits back and watches things as they unfold.
JS knew that by your nature, if he said the breeding of Stabber contained blood from your yard, you would pop your cork at every opportunity.
He also knew that I would resolutely stay firm to the truth, as I know it from him.
He told you that Stabber contains a portion of blood from your yard.
Knowing James, I believe he told you that.
He told me that Stabber is down from pure KZB blood (which the papers state).
I asked him why he would tell you such a thing and he casually answered, “Just to “F” with him! What he gets out of pulling the puppet strings I*ll never know.
So the world keeps turning.

Crazy Horse wrote:
The breeder of Mr Stabber Clouse has said many times the best dog he has ever owned or bred is this dog which chapped the hide of the poster of the INCORRECT pedigree.
**To set the record straight, I am foremost a fan of good dogs, regardless of where they come from. If I don*t personally support a particular breeder, that has nothing to do with the quality of that breeder*s dogs. I*d rather not “buy in” to adolescent practices, as that is not my style.
From my perspective, if a breeder or owner raises up a dog to achieve good things, then that is good for the breed overall. Promoting the breed and keeping dogs true to their heritage is an honorable thing.
Because your strings are the easiest to pull he (JS) loads you up with what he thinks will make you fluff your feathers and sure enough, you fly with it.
Man, he*s got your number!

So that you are hearing it from the source, if the dog in question is in fact the best dog he ever saw, then congratulations as JS knows a good dog when he sees one.
Of course, that*s not what he told me but I really don*t care to know.

Until next time, keep scratching!
Mallard
Click to expand...

Mallard once again let me set the record straight as to what was told to me by the breeder of Stabber. J.S. told me the correct breeding over the phone, I posted the correct pedigree and then called him again to make sure I had the pedigree correct which he confirmed. J.S. told me the reason why the other pedigree was posted is because people were trying to register dogs without his permission.

Now as far as Arrow being the best dog he's ever owned I.M. and Al from NorCalReds was on the phone when he said it. J.S. has told me numerous times on the phone Arrow was the best dog he's ever owned. I personally don't need my feathers fluffed because my accomplishments can stand on their own!

It's not a problem to clear the air and we all can get together in person since we all live in So. Cal.!

Mallard · Apr 20, 2014

Iron Mike wrote:
Her mother was bred by Bert.
**That is untrue.
One of the dogs that Michael Martin purchased from Bert Clouse was Clouse’s Belle Starr. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=3494

Belle Starr was a black brindle female and Martin took possession of her, along with a few other dogs after Clouse’s death, from Bert’s wife.
Martin made several breedings to Belle Starr.
Martin bred Belle Starr to Clouse’s Vic, to produce Martin’s Red Staber.
Martin also bred Belle Starr to Martin’s Red Dagger, to produce Martin’s Janie.
The above breedings can be confirmed as bred by Michael Martin by checking Gazette’s of the mid 80’s, as that is where he advertised them (i.e. after Bert’s death in 1982).
As well, Martin confirmed those breedings with me when I interviewed him several years ago.

Another dog that Martin obtained from Bert Clouse was Martin’s (Clouse’s) Bullhead .
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=233998

Martin bred Martin’s Bullhead to Clouse’s Belle Starr to produce Martin’s Mean Jolene.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=234000
This breeding was confirmed by Michael Martin and the litter can be found in Gazette’s, after Bert’s death.

Clouse’s Red Bomber (red with light evidence of brindle), was bred by Bert Clouse and purchased by Michael Martin.
Martin bred Red Bomber to Martin’s Mean Jolene, to produce the litter of your Java bitch.
That litter was advertised in the May ’87 edition of the Gazette.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=234003
Martin confirmed this breeding as well.

Interesting that you claim the dam of Java was bred by Bert, when the litter that produced Java’s dam was bred years after Bert’s death, with dogs owned and advertised by Martin.

Iron Mike wrote:
Please reframe about posting about a man you meet once at a dog show and never been to his yard or around him at the [].
**I have never been in the woodworking business; therefore I have not “reframed” any pictures or portraits. I will however not “refrain” from sharing truths that I have confirmed from the proper source.
Michael Martin is the source, since he is the breeder of Java, as well as her dam.
Suggest you check with Martin if you need further clarification as he is alive.
By the way, I did not meet Bert Clouse at a dog show.

Mallard · Apr 20, 2014

Crazy Horse,
I already told you that I believe what JS said to you concerning Stabber*s breeding.
I*m not disputing what he told you, as he confirmed with me that he said those words to you.
We are not in disagreement as to what he tells us directly, even though he is telling us different things. Again, what he gets out of this, I*ll never know.

I am also not disputing that JS told you that Arrow is the best dog he ever saw.
In fact, I congratulated you about that so I don*t know why you are belaboring the point.
Nice work!

So you see, we are not in disagreement.
Would be interesting to have James on a three way.

CrazyHorse · Apr 21, 2014

Mallard you know I don't have time to get on boards and not tell the truth! J.S. told me this in private and on 4 way with myself, Al and I.M. We don't wanna go into detail what all was said in that conversation because J.S. didn't paint you out to be a stand up guy!

Now concerning Arrow and how James felt about him I can tell you this. Recently he contacted bak2genesis on peds online because he saw a breeding he posted of the Chief/Maud II breeding. On a recent phone conversation with the owner of Maud II he told me J.S. contacted him and told him he wanted to use the Rascal semen with Maud II. The owner told him she was untested and J.S. said I don't care because I know what quality the blood is and I know how it produces when bred to Kinzenbaw dogs. Actions speak louder than words!

I don't know what the problem is clearing all this up in person. Hell I could stop by the produce co. without getting on the 405 and J.S. with traffic only lives an hour away from where I live in the South Bay!

Mallard · Apr 21, 2014

Mallard you know I don't have time to get on boards and not tell the truth!
**Who*s saying you*re not telling the truth? This is where I begin to understand that you have some other motivation, other than coming to a common understanding of truth as you are not accepting what I*m writing.
My words are, I believe you.
Bottom line is this, JS is telling you and I different things.
That has nothing to do with me as the words are coming from James.
I tell you what he said and then you accuse me of calling you a liar.

I believe he is telling you what you claim.
I don*t think you are lying, just as I am not lying.
As I said before, I just don*t know what his motivation is for setting up these conflicts, outside of possibly getting a kick from reading what we*re doing at this very moment.

Now concerning Arrow and how James felt about him I can tell you this.
Recently he contacted bak2genesis on peds online because he saw a breeding he posted of the Chief/Maud II breeding. On a recent phone conversation with the owner of Maud II he told me J.S. contacted him and told him he wanted to use the Rascal semen with Maud II. The owner told him she was untested and J.S. said I don't care because I know what quality the blood is and I know how it produces when bred to Kinzenbaw dogs. Actions speak louder than words!
**I agree and just as I wrote before, congratulations on breeding a very good dog!
I*ll write this one more time. I believe that James told you and whomever else, good things about Arrow. Why are you not understanding this?

Now after I said I believe you, I get $10.00 for every time you accuse me of not believing you.

I don't know what the problem is clearing all this up in person. Hell I could stop by the produce co. without getting on the 405 and J.S. with traffic only lives an hour away from where I live in the South Bay!
**What*s to clear up? We*re not in disagreement. I would be interested with both of us as an audience, to let James explain why he has said opposite things to the other person concerning Stabber and Arrow.
These opposite words came from him.
Otherwise, you are telling me in person what James told you and I am telling you in person what James told me. Nothing changes as we*re both stating the truth, as we have already stated. Nothing will be resolved so I don*t see the point.
I am very interested to know why you are pressing the point with me instead of asking James why he is saying different things.
Besides, we already met in Vegas.

J.S. told me this in private and on 4 way with myself, Al and I.M. We don't wanna go into detail what all was said in that conversation because J.S. didn't paint you out to be a stand up guy!
**I believe he said that to you and appreciate your discretion but I*ll use your own words to let you reflect on this; “Actions speak louder than words!”
I wonder why James would invite me to his home, introduce me to his family, meet his father at his father*s home, eat together with me, place dogs with me, accept a dog from me, “attend private functions together” and create exposure from certain knowledge if I wasn*t a stand up guy? Go figure.

The pattern I see here is that he paints a dim picture of both of us and then projects that to the other person. Almost as if to create conflict between us so that we do not remain friends, as we once were.

The principle reason that I came on the board was to share that I didn*t have an axe to grind about the alternate breeding that James told you about Stabber or was sour about the success of your dog.

Get the picture?

Iron Mike · Apr 22, 2014

Hey Page save the Bull Shit. Maybe I missed where I said the bitch was bred by Bert? Maybe you need to reread my post and quit worrying about word reference.
No you didn't talk to Michael Martin. If you had then you would have known about Clouse Vic. This was a dog bought directly from Bert by Raymond Parrish.
This is whom owned him when Michael bred her, when she was bred to Vic.
Now you can sit back and play like you know these people when you and I know you didn't.
You look up things in magazines and website and copy them. i.e. the picture of mine you used of your little tribute site to Bert of Mitzie which was copyright from my website.

The picture was given to me from Clarence Yates. Who btw if you ever read Bloodlines Journal in 1968 would have read the article by Clarence owning her when she was less then a year old.
The dog was kept just a couple miles down the road from where I live. Unlike you, many these dogs I personally saw.

Do you really think I didn't know Michael or had talked to and seen him before?
Did you think I didn't know who bred Java? You don't even know how I came by here.
Now if you talked to Michael I'm sure he told how I came by her and also where she died.
You play like you know so much when you know very little, specially about my involvements.
BTW Bert owned Belle Star (Red Bomber sister) and was the breeder of both of them.
Yes she was bred to Martin's Motorhead ( half brother/sister bred) off Clouse dogs off Clouse Humpy.
Belle Star and Red Bomber (who was a red/red nose) was heavy bred from Clouse dogs down from Clouse Jobe.
Java was straight Clouse blood.
Other then what Cary Mickel had that produced so many champions and grand champions, I'm sure if you talked to Michael, which I believe I already told you who bought out Michael Martin's yard.
BTW did you ever even knew where Michael of Raymond lived since you posted about dogs they owned..

Mike you BS all the rest of the people, but I know how little you have done, influence in this breed and people you knew.
Who are you now, Ca. Jack Jr. where all you knowledge comes from books you read, or people like myself to get your information you use to impress others.
Because it surely doesn't come from first hand knowledge or the people you knew.

Iron Mike · Apr 22, 2014

Hey Page I'm surprised how you talk about other peoples' dogs, and what have you ever done or owned?
Are you still pissed because I wouldn't sell you Red Danger or the fact I let it be known you couldn't afford $1,500. and had to get a bank loan and ask your wife for it first?
Knowing you couldn't afford to buy the prospect, I knew you couldn't afford to feed and the rest for keeping the dog, so now you have to make comments about him and what he produced when you never had the heart to go get that easy money?
Don't worry how other people's dogs are bred, people like JS has done more in dogs then you ever saw.
Oh yes, there was a 4 way call between Myself, J, A.A. and JS. When the call was over, it was very clear the time of day it was and who wanted to do what.

You need to worry about the 1 or 2 dogs you can feed if you still have any at all.

There will always be people like you around to record the history but never be one to make it.

BLUE8BULL · Apr 22, 2014

iron mike said: ↑

oh ya i promise to up load a picture of a "pure" clouse female i owned. Both sire and dam was bred by bert.
Here she is, her name is java:
Click to expand...

...very nice bitch im.....remind's me some of the older strong dog's......real nice....

Iron Mike · Apr 22, 2014

BTW your are right, it wasn't a show where met him, it was an ABDA meeting hosted in CA. Bert was a guest speaker and this was when you meet him and talked to him. And I? At Clyde Mason house and he wasn't a speaker, the dogs were.....
Now so you know, Belle Starr was bred by Bert when he bred her to Michael's dog Motorhead and this how the mother came about. This is why I wrote the sire and dam was bred by Bert as they were.
Now you can dispute such a minor thing as who bred the mother, but as one who knew Bert and was asked to attend his funeral as many in in SW MI. who did as Laurie Best, Jim Smith etc. where were you?

Iron Mike · Apr 22, 2014

Thanks Blue, she sweetheart of a dog.

Mallard · Apr 22, 2014

Norrod wrote:
Maybe I missed where I said the bitch was bred by Bert?
**I re-read you post. This is from a post within this string.
You wrote,
“a pure Clouse female I owned. Both sire and dam was bred by Bert”.

Mike, the Dam was not bred by Bert.

Norrod wrote:
No you didn't talk to Michael Martin.
**Of course I did. In fact, he approved what I wrote concerning our interview, before I published it.

Norrod wrote:
You look up things in magazines and website and copy them. i.e. the picture of mine you used of your little tribute site to Bert of Mitzie which was copyright from my website.
**The old magazines are a great resource, as you get pictures of men and dogs, as well as the stories and articles they personally authored and published.
Those stories are from the men who wrote them. The great thing about this is after these men are long gone, we have their versions of stories as told by them.
Nobody can change their meaning 40 years later, because we have their stories, as they told them. These articles are great equalizers for people like yourself, who give out false information and Mike, I don*t think you intend to mislead… I just think you don*t recall facts as sharply as you used to. The picture of Mitzie I had was taken from an old edition of bloodlines and not from your site.

Norrod wrote:
Hey Page I'm surprised how you talk about other peoples' dogs, and what have you ever done or owned?
**I do not have first-hand knowledge of fighting dogs or dog fights.
I have never handled a dog in a fight (roll or contest), conditioned a dog for a fight, matched a dog, refereed a match or made breedings to produce fighting dogs.
I do however do quite a bit of research and have spoken to many people who have provided their own histories as it relates to these animals.
Nothing more than that.

A person doesn*t have to know George Washington in order to do research about the man and then publish what they*ve learned.
You seem to have a big problem with people looking at anyone other than you as an information source.

Norrod wrote:
Are you still pissed because I wouldn't sell you Red Danger or the fact I let it be known you couldn't afford $1,500. and had to get a bank loan and ask your wife for it first?
**I*m not upset about you selling the dog to someone else as in the end, the dog went to the right place. It makes you feel better to think I*m upset.
People like JS has done more in dogs then you ever saw.
**You are exactly right!

Norrod wrote:
You need to worry about the 1 or 2 dogs you can feed if you still have any at all.
There will always be people like you around to record the history but never be one to make it.
**Now you are getting the picture. All I do is research. That*s all I intend to do.
I don*t own dogs, nor do I have the desire to own them.

Norrod wrote:
Now so you know, Belle Starr was bred by Bert.
**I always knew who bred Belle Starr.

Norrod wrote:
when he bred her to Michael's dog Motorhead
**Michael Martin didn*t receive dogs bred by Bert until after Bert*s death.
This was confirmed by both Michael Martin and Bert Clouse*s wife Geraldine.
So he (Bert) could not have bred Belle Star to Motorhead (Michael*s dog).

Norrod wrote:
and this how the mother came about.
This is why I wrote the sire and dam was bred by Bert as they were.
**So your way out is to change the ped? Nice!

Norrod Wrote:
Now you can dispute such a minor thing as who bred the mother,
**I am disputing your statement because it was wrong. Correct facts are important. You wrote that Bert bred the dam to Java and I proved you wrong.
Now you are changing the ped to save face.

Norrod wrote:
but as one who knew Bert and was asked to attend his funeral as many in in SW MI. who did as Laurie Best, Jim Smith etc. where were you?
**I*m so glad I asked about this when I did.
The arrangements for Bert*s funeral were made principally by his daughter and to a lesser extent by his wife. Neither of them ever heard of you. Neither of them ever heard of you or had any recollection of you ever being on the yard and both wife and daughter were heavily involved with Bert*s dog activities.
Their words.

This should be good…
Can you produce any correspondence from Bert, proving that you knew him?
Any pictures with you and the man in the same photo?

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Clouse blood

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Java.jpg

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Mallard Pup

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Iron Mike CH Dog

CrazyHorse Big Dog

Mallard Pup

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Clouse blood

Iron Mike CH Dog

Bones1 Big Dog

Iron Mike CH Dog

Iron Mike CH Dog

Attached Files:

Java.jpg

Java1.jpg

Java2.jpg

Java3.jpg

bamaman GRCH Dog

Mallard Pup

Mallard Pup

mccoypitbulls Underdog

Iron Mike CH Dog

CrazyHorse Big Dog

Mallard Pup

Mallard Pup

CrazyHorse Big Dog

Mallard Pup

Iron Mike CH Dog

Iron Mike CH Dog

BLUE8BULL CH Dog

Iron Mike CH Dog

Iron Mike CH Dog

Mallard Pup

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