A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

this is were ishould of came along time ago i love the apbt and imo no other breed is real match sure a few can get lucky and have a killing machine of any fighting breed but there is always somthing better and in that case the some thing better would be the apbt i have read and heard of other breeds besting are breed the tosa bully kutta pikta akita even a boston terier/apbt cross but the best that has been provin time and time again is see with your own eyes and then dipize

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

............. I agree..

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Funny you say that when in a completely other thread you are trying to prove otherwise (remember the "pitkita"?).

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

I Was Never Sayin The Apbt Wasnt The Best And You Constantly Acuse Me Of Wrong Thing Yes I Like The Pikta And Yes I Know They Coyuld Maybe Best Are Breed But Not In The Long Wrong Plus These Pikita Are Probly More Of A Guatrd Dog And Also A Better Hunter But Better Fighter I Doubt It Like I Said See With Your Own Eyes Then Despise Quit Acussin Uless U Read All The Way Threw Not Little Parts U Chose To Bash Quit Being Such A Girl

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

LOL, that is true wisconsin.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Another thing, in no way, shape, or form can the f#ckin Pikacho ever best our breed. Get that out of your head. Our breed is perfect the way it is, and anytime you breed with something else to "Best our Breed", you only take away and destory our breed. By the way, our dog was not breed to be guard dogs for the simple fact that you actually have to have some type of human aggression for that, and that is not something we wanted in our breed. And now you are looking to breed some human aggression into the most hatted breed in the world to make people Love us some more. Arnt you just smart and looking after our breed. I said i wouldnt bash anymore, but this is rediculous that you have not listened to a single person in this forum. By crossing out of our breed you put us and all the APBTs at risk, and if you do that you are not a true APBT representitive.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

look i will say this a thousand times i dont brred out are bred and never will ok.but yeah i might get this pikita to have a kennel guard dog/hunter/house pet and i live were there was alreadty a plan to ban are breed and trust me it will never happen again plus i am responsiable owner and would not allow it so say what you will you will say it anyways but im for the apbt and like i said see with your own eyes and then dispise dont go buy what someone told i belive none of what i hear and half of what i see alot better this way and if yall were wise u would do the same.u guys ACT LIKE I NEVER OWNED A APBT ,WELL I HAVE FOR 15 YEARS NEVER HAD A PROBLEM AND I HAVE HAD MAN BITTERS TOO SO THERE YOU ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS U MAKE YOURSELF

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

.........................Cool down friends....its trouble for nothing...think we have enough R E A L enemys....shake hands!

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

But wait...i heard of this great Pinochio dog...lol

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

All I can say is, I'm glad WisconsinDog and the others like 'em are in your breed and not mine. What a bunch of kooks!!!!!!!!!!!

This is exactly why we, the "bad" dog owners, get such a rap.

See ya' and Good Luck, you'll need it.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Hello there fellow dog lovers. I was reading through another forums topics when I came accross a few that fit well in this thread. This are statements from a Japanese dogman who has worked in his profession both the US and Japan and with both Tosa Ken and game-bred APBT and another poster:

Enjoy!
Touryukai Posted: Aug 17 2006, 12:35 PM

Hi, I am new here and was introduced by some fellow dog guys regarding some debates regarding Tosas and APBTs. I want to set the premise first off that I am a Japanese national currently living in Japan but have lived in the U.S. for many years and successfully competed and bred both the APBT and Tosa on both sides of the Pacific including bringing top fighting Tosa lines to the U.S. and top Fighting APBT lines into Japan. (Was the first to bring the Redboy/Jocko line into Japan which resulted in Thunder a 5XW and 3X Best in Show winner bred by my partners in Japan and competed here.. His belly sister I brought back to the U.S. (Sakura aka Cuda) and was 6XW off the chain and has gone 2XW last I heard professionally.) I was also the first to breed and school a tosa in the U.S. which was sent to Japan and became an equivalent to a Gr. Ch. or Zen-Yokozuna in the Tosa fighting rings of Japan. In any case, I have bred and owned many good Tosas and APBTs of various lines and weight classes and have attended hundreds of matches and conventions naturally in japan but also in the u.S. and Mexico.. So this is what I am going to say:

The Premier fighting dog in Japan is still the Tosa and will continue to be for some time. The APBT is popular and has their own fighting clubs (fought cajun rules) and sometime they also compete with the Tosa in Tradional rules but only the APBTs that are atleast 29kgs+.

In Japan, the APBT and Tosa are respected equally by the dogmen here. I have read posts by many members on this board including so called fighting breed experts that are providing false information or misrepresentation of the actual fighting world here in Japan. Remember it is legal here and we have very well organized and respected members in the fight clubs on both the Tosa and ABPT side.

Myth #1: The APBT has dethroned the Tosa in japan and is the primary fighting dog now. Truth: Not by a longshot, Tosas far outnumber the APBT and let's just say there is no such thing as pet Tosas or APBTs here in Japan. The Tosa conventions are much larger and prestigious typically than the smaller APBT fight clubs and tournaments.

Myth #2: A 55lb+ APBT will typically whip a much larger Tosa that is in the 100lb+ range. No not true at all. No sane APBT dogmen in Japan would challenge and make ridiculous claims against the Tosa dogmen community here. In fact, a larger tosa could typically kill a much smaller pitbull in the ring even against proven APBTs that have done well against other APBTs at weight. This is why we have weight classes. The only time we allow mixed breed matches is when the weight disparity is within under 10kgs max which is still quite a bit of weight for an APBT to push uphill against a larger Tosa. Only lightweight Tosas under 40kg typically fight with heavy weight pits that conditioned are at close to 30kg. Otherwise this is cruelty and is not very sporting in any way.

Myth #3: The APBT is the best breed lb for lb. Truth: I believe this to be true for the most part and especially in scratch and turn rules.. However, I have seen good light weight tosas fight at near equal weight with proven heavyweight pits and beat them on occasion even under APBT rules.

The situation is that good proven APBTs have influenced some Tosa lines in the last 30+yrs and have added to the performance in the breed in some ways. But again to put in perspective, a great deal of many Tosas without recent APBT infusion would also have to compete with either heavily APBT influenced Tosas or sometimes pure APBTs and those that could not be competitive were culled while those in the population that could propagated and naturally raised the bar over the years irrelevant to APBT infusion or not. The Tosa of 30yrs ago is not the tosa of today meaning they are getting more and more competitive each year just as the gamebred APBTs are.

Personally, I keep and enjoy both breeds and both are good at what they do. To say a Tosa from good fighting linses iis not a capable fighter is ridiculous. Some on this board seem to think the APBT has no equal regardless of weight. This is not true folks! The APBT certainly has no equal at weight. However a good heavy wgt. Tosa would have little to fear from any pitbull period. The power, gameness, abilty of the Tosa is unmatched by almost any other breed of dog wtih exception of the APBT and a certain size disparity would bring certain death to a much smaller yet ultimately gamer APBT. This is not only my opinon but based on what I have witnessed. ( I have lost half a dozen APBTs to my Tosas over the years in accidental kennel fights but never the other way around.)

So the next time there is a debate that involves the Tosa, I hope you use this tidbit of truth and insight from a dogman in Japan that has experience and aptitude for both breeds.





Touryukai Posted: Aug 18 2006, 01:06 AM
I will try to reply to the above posts here. Let's to put thing into perspective: In the fastlane APBT world it is well accepted that the smaller APBTs typically in the under 45lb range are more consistent then larger APBTs in the 65lb+ pit weight range. This is also true with the tosa. Most APBT dogmen will not fight their super game and proven 38lber to let's say an even average 60lber. The chance of the 38lber to overcome the 60lb APBT is considerable give the sheer size, power of the weight disparity. A 60lb APBT would not be the same as a 70lb GSD in terms of gameness, abilty even an average gamebred APBT that is not a cold dog. A ssmaller 38lb APBT maybe able to handle and overcome another non-fighting breed with this sort of weight disadvantage but would be difficult to do with another APBT.

O.K. so where is the Tosa in terms of gameness with the APBT? Let's levelset again. Japan has half the population of the U.S. and is the second largest economy in the world, certainly the only first world nation that has legalized and regulated the world of professional dogfighting. We have mandatory ringside vets and strict code of conducts that all member of the dogfighting club need to adhere to. All matches are legal and we have strict rules, judges, etc.. It is also considered a gentlemen's sport that only typically affluent and powerful people participate in. (We have a very long history of the sport and how this has involved.)

The APBTs that were brought into Japan were all from some of the best and most well reknown dogmen in the U.S. (Rebel, Garner, Patrick, Hammonds, you name it.) The Japanese APBT dogmen have the means and resources to only bring top lines and did not waste their time getting pet APBTs and like as their single focus was to bring the best proven lines and in many cases proven U.S. dogs to accelerate the APBT fighting clubs in Japan. In comparison, the U.S. and Europe's "real" fastlane APBTs are only a small portion of the overall breed's population due to their popularity as pets, protection dogs, weight pullling, confirmation, and just poor puppy mill types. Even in the U.S., if you were to really want a fastlane bred dog you would need to have the necessary contacts and means to get dogs from reputable dogmen. A $300 APBT in the newspaper is typically not the same as getting a reputable bloodline that have been carefully bred for generations or is a proven battlecross, etc.. Due to this you could easily say that per population the APBTs in Japan are much more consistent than the their U.S. counterpart as all APBTs are typically bred and used for the ring and it is legal and there is no gambling on the dogs so there is an actual process that helps bring the best to the top so only true enthusiasts with the right heart and mind stay with the program while in the U.S. it is about money oftentimes and more and more teh sport is associated with unsavory lower class types that turn-away the majority of the population except for the most socialy deviant types.

Back to the subject at hand:

Myth: Gameness is not found in the Tosa like the APBT. The truth is: deep gameness is also rare in APBTs and that is why they are sought after and carefully cherished. It is not like the majority of APBT population are all deep game, as always there are a fair share of curs and dissappointments even in the best game lines. If it wasn't for dogmen this process would fall apart and the APBT would become AMstaffs. Although the percentage of deep gameness is higher on average in the gamebred APBT population, there are deep game Tosas around with the kind of gameness appreciated by APBT dogmen. Are they abundant? No but there are enough around to not discount the Tosa as legitimate game bred breed with far more predictible gameness than the likes of past fighitng breeds such as the AMstaff, BT, presa, AB, etc.. Remember the Tosa is a modern day fighting breed where the dogmen here in Japan also have exposure and often also fight APBTs. Certainly, the Japanese know what gameness is and what to attain to as a benchmark for a fighting dog.

Tosa and APBTs against other fighting breeds (Japan): The Tosa of APBT has been fought against the following: AB, Presa, Neo, OEM, Douge, Fila, Dogo, Bully Kutha, and Bully Gull. I cannot attest that these are all the best representatives of each breed but from what I understand they attempted to pick individuals that were atleast fair representatives in any case. It seems after many trials and errors the tosa and ABPT are still the only breeds that are consistent for any serious consideration by the professional dogmen here.

Hope this helps.

Touryukai Japan


to be continued.....

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

.......

and he continues:


Touryukai Posted: Aug 18 2006, 04:00 AM

The question was asked how are Tosas game tested in Japan? Well, it depends mostly on the individual Tosa dogman. Many such as my partners and I will 2-3 dog our Tosas and see a good deal of time before going prime time. This is very similar to what we do with our APBTs. We generally have a few good schooling dogs just for this purpose. One of our regular schooling dogs for our Tosa is a large purebred 68lb APBT that typically gets most of our young dogs started. This particular APBT was not a deep game dog but did go 55min. during his prime in Cajun matches with other APBTs before he failed to scratch and regulated as a valuable school dog for our young lightweight to middleweight tosas. (We have other lightweights and middle weght schooling tosas for our young heavywgts and super heavywgts.) A good first time school dog should not have a punishing mouth but should keep on the pressure so the young dog learns something and we can see how much heart the young prospect has.

Another thing is that we have several nationwide chapters of both Tosa and APBT fighting clubs not to mention local fighting chapters as well. There are champions and gr. champions in each of these clubs. Some dogs are also competed in multiple fighting clubs.

Tosa fighting rules: In traditional rules as we call it a dog that turns loses (3 steps away from their opponent), so does any vocalization after the first 30sec. (cry, growl, etc. is a sign of cur) Also, a bottom dog that is out of holds after the first 20min. while the opponent top dogs is in holds and standing is also the winner. In any case the traditional rules are much more severe and it is easier to lose in a shorter period of time than Cajun rules. A dog that does not want to engage also is a loser so is baring of the fangs in a threat dispay. (Sign of Cur) A dog that get's severely injured by the opponent (non-stop arterial bleeding) is also a loser by default as it was not able to defend well enough to prevent an onslaught by the opponent. There are some APBT clubs that also fight with traditional rules also do not go as long as their Cajun counterparts due to the severity of the rules.



Boxingman Posted: Aug 18 2006, 05:02 AM

So you are saying that you find the same deep gameness in the bigger tosa inus as in 40ibs pitbulls?I disagree with you BIG TIME on that one.There is a common belif that the best pit weight for the pitbull is around 50-55 ibs because the dog is still very quick,agile,has the drive and will(deep gameness) to go and he isent all that small.

How do you create gameness in a big dog lacking most of the bloodlines from the true game dogs?That be the terrier dogs?Only terrier dogs are described by dog people as true game dogs so how do you achive gameness in a Tosa when this breed isent present by much?

One answer.The tosa is crossed with the APBT which makes it more of a pitbull than a tosa inu....Tosa inus aint game dogs.They have drive etc but they aint particular game...At least not in a concistent way and as you say deep game is on avarage more seen in pit bulls than any other breed.They have been breeded for this quality for so long that it also sits deeper inside bigger pitbulls on avarage than other fighting breeds, which will cur out most of the times.There is always exeptions but as a rule big fighting dogs aint game..Terriers are game and has this high prey drive to chase,hunt and fight..

Only 1 out of 7 puppies would have the deep gameness the dog men looks for.maybe even less ,so go figure how many hard cur pitbulls is used around..Pitbulls as a rule is more game than other dogs.Do you disagree on that one?

There are many more secound and tirdclass pitbulls out there than the top once..

So since this quality is even difficult to find in pitbulls who has a much higher degree of real high drive terrier blood inside them, how can a tosa inu be anything close to as game when this dog lacks most of the high prey drive indtincts of the small terriers?Thats dosent sound very logical to me..

And why did Buster beat up 3 Tosa Inus outweighing him by 50+ pounds and around 80 pounds for the champion??

So you are saying that the Kutta isent concistent when fighting?I agree and thats why they dont belong in the top.They are individuals nothing more and that goes with Kangals to..Have the Kangal been tried out against the best of the tosa inu champions?There is so much bragging about them in here but they are individuals to and big time curs...Do you agree on that or disagree?

I also have another qustion for you.There is so many backyard fights in here.They put pitbulls in allkinds of enviorments were they can`t use their speed and agility..that be mudd fights were the pitbull is slipping all the time and the big dog just stands there..The pit cant use his strength when he slips all the time and dosent get a solid hold on the ground, so he is just pressed around...Those fights are amature fights to favour big dogs who dosent rely on speed and agility..Then you have grass fights and snow fights etc.Its all a bunch of amature backyard brawlers to me..

Whats your take on that one?

to be continued.....

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

and the dogman responded:

Touryukai Posted: Aug 18 2006, 11:06 AM ​

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O.K. first of all the original Western dog bred into the native spitz type Tosa was more akin to an APBT than the the modern bulldog based on my research. I also do know that the APBT (Or American fighting dog as it was called in the day) was also brought in and influenced the Tosa along with other Western breeds from the early creation of the Tosa not just the recent past 30yrs. Did you know that the native dogs were also bred for gameness to a degree and lost to the western breeds due to size, power, and mouth more than the lack of terrier gameness you tout.

The gameness of the APBT or terrier is not simply the bloodline, it is the course of generations of selective breeding by dogmen checking their stock and striving for a superior breed of dog each generation. Sure, starting with a solid foundation is paramount but just as confirmation APBTs differ from game bred APBTs the modern Japanese Tosa is also a selective effort by generations of dogmen and some who are also influenced by the benchmark which is the APBT.

So to get to my point, imagine if you would 10,000 tosas and let's say 500 or even let's say 1000 of these have proven gamebred APBT carefully bred into them to improve performance. The rest of the 9000 that have no recent APBT infusion will either stay competitive to the new APBT infused tosas or they would be culled. Basicallly if anything the bar is raised for the rest of the segment regardless of whether or not APBT is bred into them or not. Does that makes sense? Its basically forced survival of the fittest and certainly there would be many tosas in the population without recent APBT that would remain competitive and those will then be left to propagate and flourish. We don't breed our pits or our tosas for personal protection or any other purposes in Japan as generally the dogmen type in Japan are not ones that need protection (Martial Artists, Boxers, MMA, Sumo, and those traditional Samurai types abound), second this is one of the safest, modern countries in the world and do not need a PP dog what so ever. We take the sport seriously and are into the sport to make a positive contribution in the Tosa or APBT world. We don't gamble what soever on the dogs as that would demean the sport in our minds and attract unsavory types that will cheat, etc. to win by any means. The game dog world here is based on fair play and strict rules of conduct for it to remain legit and legal.

Boxingman: I understand you despise dogmen and the game yet you seem very opinionated on the scene and the capabilities of these dogs. Have you personally matched dogs or conditioned any dogs of your own especially APBTs or Tosas? Are there many professional matches and conventions in Norway which you have been exposed to? (I thought it was illegal there as well like in much of Western Europe.)

It is true that the lightweight tosas are more consistent than the superheavy wgt. tosas in general but this has nothing to do with APBT infusion in the lightweight class or not as there are APBT infused heavy wgts. as well big deal. My point was that just as it is in the APBT the smaller dogs generally are more consistent but you still wouldn't match a light weight tosa to a heavy weight tosa either.


Your quotations of Buster the pitbull defeating Tosas in japan maybe very dated or simply embellished third party reference. I am not sure but have not heard about it before. All I do know is that the modern fighting tosa's gameness and ability is not so far off from the APBT as in other non-fighting breeds that a significant weight difference could swing the fight towards the Tosa. This is fact and not fiction based on observations in Japan and in the U.S. from my own dogs to my parters and others who have both breeds and compete in both Cajun and Tradional matches. There are many videos and footage to show this just as there are e.g. also of smaller APBTs beating larger Tosas on occasion too.

So in conclusion the Tosa and APBT due to their weight classes are not matched so often as it is not sporting to do so.. Only heavy wgt. APBTs and lightweight Tosas are the only conditions that dogmen will match these breeds typically. Even at these conditions the fights can be fairly even most of the times with victory going to either breed depending on the individual animal and condition mostly. The fact is the APBT is certainly the best lb for lb and is the benchmark in terms of gameness and ability but the tosa is more than just another has been fighter that is obsolete. Far from it, the Tosa has proven to be the best for what they do here in Japan and although the APBT has made contributions to the modern Tosa in some ways it has not rendered the Tosa obsolete only raised the bar if anything both through genetic contribution as well as competing directly with the Tosa and making it more competitive in the end. Hope this help makes it more clear.

Touryukai Japan

Boxingman Posted: Aug 18 2006, 12:06 PM ​

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Boxingman: I understand you despise dogmen and the game yet you seem very opinionated on the scene and the capabilities of these dogs <!--emo&:clap:--><!--endemo--> ..

yes I do but not the dogmen who take honor and pride in their dogs..That belike you people in Japan and even some in Usa and other place around the world.When its clean and fair play and not any kind of abusive against the loosing dog I can accept it...The fact is that underground mnatches is also found in your native country(Japan) were I would assume that abusing dogs is part of the ritual due to the fact that criminals is involved..They care for money and not pride and honor..

I see a fair dog fight with a judge as a boxing or mma fight...There is one winner or one loser.If the game had been played fair like this in the west it would "maybe" have more followers.

I do admire the qualites in fighting dogs but does that mean I like to see them abused and death?Of course thats not the case.I react very strongly against abusive people who I call sadistc and cruel when they electroshock the losing dog for not showing enough gameness.Those underground criminals and fucers I react against.They aint dog men but dog abusers and I would like to get my hand in such peopel...

I have owned a pitbull before and today I own the staffordshire bullterrier.I have been involved some years agao in one organization fighting against underground matches were dogs did in fact die..I have seen some dog fights between some breeds of dogs many years ago but mostly on amature level.The dogs used can not be concidered top fighting dogs because those dogs isent allowed in Norway...


This is my dog today and belive it or not.He beat up a rottweiler inside 2 minutes without being dominated at the start.We got attacked in the park and my dog was on a leash when the rottweiler came running...I call that fight a complete miss match....i did let my dog go out of the leash and after a while the owner came and we seperated the dogs and they were both fine......

I wounder were you rate the akita Inu as a fighting dog today?What about the kangal?Why not bring them to Japan for a match <!--emo&:clap:--><!--endemo--> under fair conditions and rules for both dogs..

And as you said.Pit Bulls can beat up much larger tosa inus and that means they have what it takes.. <!--emo&:clap:--><!--endemo-->

to be continued...

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

I just would like to see some pics of really nice Tosa.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Touryukai [color=#a5ae7c]Posted:[/color] Aug 19 2006, 12:57 AM ​

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The question was have I personally seen Tosa v.s. LGD fights. A European Tosa enthusiast shared a video of his Tosa v.s. Kangal. In the video the Kangal was larger than the Tosa but the Tosa was dominating the fight and from what I understand the Kangal stopped before the 10min. mark. If Filas are considered an LGD then yes I personally have seen a lightweight Tosa (33kg) pretty much dominate and stop an 80Kg+ Fila. The Fila really didn't want anymore after the first several minutes.

The question how do I rate the Akita. Well I have owned two Akitas and they are tough but nowhere near the level of performance type Tosa or APBT in terms of ability or gameness. That said a few of my akitas were rolled with both my own APBTs at the time and others and they showed pretty good meaning if they were on top dominating they would continue to put the pressure on atleast until fatigue set in. A good 115lb + AKita that has had several fights under his belt could potentiall put away a smaller APBT before gameness and wind became a factor. (An average pet APBT would not concern most Akitas that much I presume as long as they have a decent amount of size advantage.) There are scattered reports even in Japan of good individual Akitas showing well against middle weight and lightweight Tosas but this is more of an exception than the rule and never in official sanctioned matches. (In most cases these Akitas belong to a Tosa dogman or APBT dogman and had an eye for things to try the Akita out as roll dog or something.) However, the Akita will never make any sort of comeback in the professional dogfighting world here as the Tosa has made them obsolete many decades ago.

If there was a determined and large scaled effort by Akita breeders to breed fighting Akitas it maybe possible to one day breed contenders but again this would be quite an undertaking to match the current crop of performance Tosas and APBTs in my opinion and would require a very strict regimen of testing and culling side by side with the modern fighting breeds. This can be said probably of most of the past fighting breeds that are not consistently being used anymore in the professional dogfighting circle.

Gameness in the Tosa: To me it is not surprising that most Western fighting breed enthusiasts doubt the abilty of the Tosa. Here are the reasons why: 1) Few good fighting Tosa stock really made there way out of Japan in the first place. The majority of the Tosa enthusiast outside of Japan are rare dog enthusiasts linked to confirmation and wanted a larger tosa and the Japanese knew that the tosa would never see a fighting ring again outside of Japan for the most part and pretty much provided Tosas that could not perform adequetely in the ring to send overseas which was just fine.

2) Also once the Tosas were established overseas these confirmation breeders put no thought or emphasis on breeding for performance and checking their stock like dogmen do. They just bred for looks v.s. performance. This would seriously further deteriorate any good fighting traits left in the original imported Tosa stock as no one is breeding the best to best type of scenario and culling ones that are inferior in terms of ability and gameness.

3) There are many APBT biased books by the likes of Stratton, Semencic and others that never set foot in Japan nor researched the Tosa topic adequetely by speaking directly to both the Tosa and ABPT dogmen here in Japan. (I know because I have spoken to some of these authors personally.) They wrote according to second and third hand information from other Americans for the most part which they thought were accurate. Certainly there may have been some APBT victories with less than ideal tosas and the miltary guys stationed there embellished a scenario to make it seem like this is how is everywhere in Japan. In any case, if you want to get down to the truth of such scenarios for serious journalists it's easier when you have a legal environment like Japan with the best representatives of both breeds before you make judgement if you ask me. Witnessing a dogfight in the West is pretty much the very least a misdemenor and in some cases considered criminal. So serious journalism on this subject from the West has to be second or third hand journalism. In Japan, we can just replicate scenarios in fairly scientfic ways with the dogmen community here and not fear about the law. It is legal to have your own dogfighting ring here in your backyard if you wish and many do.

4) There has never been a good Tosa book in the English language for enthusiasts to compare to. I intend to write a book on the modern dogfighting sport and culture in Japan with reference to both the APBT and Tosa. I hope one day my book which will reference many top dogmen here on both the APBT and Tosa side will be a valuable contribution to the West on this subject,

Regards,

Touryukai Japan



Touryukai [color=#a5ae7c]Posted:[/color] Aug 19 2006, 06:59 PM

Regarding the video I saw between Tosa v.s Kangal: The video was pretty fuzzy but the dog was indeed black. I thought perhaps there are such things as Black Kanagal as there are black tosas, APBTs, etc. Was this not a Kangal I presume? (I am only going by what I heard.)

Regards,

Touryukai

Never heard of any Kangal being fought in Japan perhaps there are so few if any representitives around. Would be interesting I think just to try out but this would requre getting a good specimen from proven fighting Kangal lines if there is such a thing and that would require direct contacts.

However, I can verify the Bully Kutha and Gull terrier were both brought in to Japan and tested as I have spoken with the dogman in Japan that had brought them in via his contacts and relationship with the Pakistani consulate in Japan. He was also one of the first guys in Japan to get the Redboy/Jocko lines from me many years ago.

I had thought that the Bully Kutha is a superior dog to the Kangal and is the top fighting breed in the Central Asia as it was bred soley for fighting and does not have a dual function as a LGD? In any case, recently I met some Pakistani nationals at a local tournament who were dogmen back in their country but now residing in Japan. They told me they were taking some Tosa pups to Pakistan and will also bring in top BK lines into Japan to try out as well. Perhaps we will see more Tosa v.s. BK type scenarios in the future here in Japan. We shall see.

to be continued...

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Just looking pretty or doing their thing?

Let me post some right now.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

First let me present to you some Sivas Kangals. These are a few samples of the strain of Kangals used only for fighting in some parts of Turkey.

Credit goest to Cimbomlu with thanks!

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Here are some fighting tosas.

Credits go to Xtrug, Arcan Tosa, and Kakiko Kennel.

Thank you very much.

There are also several other Tosa pictures in the previous pages thanks to Texasbulldogs.

Enjoy.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

very well said gameness is what allows are dogs to overcome all oponents of all sizes. they may not win every time but they will win the majority of the time because their hearts let them win against all odds.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

From all i can tell,and from what ive seen[never seen a tosa in action]
A bully kutta is a punishing animal,a very brutal,very leggy dog,while being 150/200 pounds the dogs are well proportioned.
there 'has' been stock imported to the usa within the last couple years,havent heard anything yet,but i do know who has them...
central asian ovkarkas have proven to be pretty devistating also,while not being game,there size and ferocity speaks for itself.as the world becomes smaller via the internet,these rare and rustic types become somewhat avaliable.no matter what one of these breeds is the top dog,there all good in there own right!
It is my belief that the bully kutta probably wont fit well into the united states society..