A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Good arguement Sid....anyone who needs to see an example of which just watch Mirko "Crocop" vs Bob Sapp....Fedor has a couple matches like that also. I remember years ago, before weightclasses in ufc, a 600 lb. man getting beat by someone under 200 lbs. The little guy tired him out, got him knocked down and was relentless. The little guy wound up busting his wrist in multiple places from continuously chopping the back of this guys head....Just goes to prove, the little guy didnt have the knock-out power in one punch, and he was not as strong, and was also 1/3 the competitors size...but he was a game, and smart, and thats why he won.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

I did not make the weight up. I read it on another forum which had a picture of this massive and I do mean massive Kangal. It was a monster of a dog. I tried to find it but couldn't. If I find it (next week), I will post that monster. I think (not sure) it was a sample of their fighting kind of Kangal. I tell you, it was a monster (according to the poster on other site it was 285lbs).

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

I thought you were going to stand up for the big guys, big guy!

I remember that fight. It was marketed as the Sumo Wrestler (A Big black guy) against a Judo practitioner. As 14 stated, the little guy stood away from the big boy's grasp kicking the sumo on the legs until the legs could not hold the big boy up. Later on, the Judo practitioner stated that he did not want to stop punching in case the Sumo man got up. I was scare for Judo guy too!

Now don't start mentioning Bob Sapp. He is a frustrated Football player that was marketable to the Japanese due to his size and demeanour. He is still learning how to fight. I have seen many of his fights and he has NO GAME at all. I have seen him beg his corner to stop the fight and the corner attempting to convince him to continue. Not a fighter at all!

Now let's talk true fighters. Crocop vs Mark Hunt. There you have a "fat" man with an elephant heart and a head of steel.

OFF TOPIC....NOW LET'S GET BACK TO THIS REALLY GOOD THREAD (IF I DO SAY SO MYSELF

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Rocky's Human, I can believe a dog at 200lbs a monster, but 285? NO, that can't be right! it was a forum? they are probably all lies, big fish. I've never heard of a 285lb dog, ever, ever. That can't be right. I'm curious, I'm going to look into it too. A 285lb dog couldn't move, it's as ridiculous as a 600lb man, it's crazy.

Well, the pit bull is the best per pound I'm sure, but there are other breeds that can whoop a good pit. Not that it's fair though...

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

There you go. Thats all that needs to be said. Frustrated...marketed by size and demeanour....just learning how to fight...NO GAME! Sounds to me like a direct comparison! ROFL

And actually,Sapp was a better fighter BEFORE training and learning how to fight.....he was unpredictable then, boxing an orthodox style hinders him greatly.

How about this fight.....yet another example of a great little (in comparison) guy easily handling a good bigger guy.

Fedor would be in comparison maybe a Tombstone, Alligator, or Mayday. He's larger than average but still not unproportionate. We dont need to breed for big dogs to win. We've won for years with small dogs,and will continue to do so. There dogs are evolving, ours are also.

Fights could easily be staged against say Bob Sapp and a small guy to show his superior size and strength (as he was many times).....that is whats going on with Kangals now. Put them up against bottom of the barrel APBT's and watch them win with ease. Top dogs from each breed (if it was legal) would yeild the same results as it always has before

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

E X A C T L Y ...i agree

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

There have been gamebred dogs larger than usual such as Pincher, GR.CH. Hank, GR.CH. Mayday, CH. Big John that were only not culled, but were bred many times. Their resulting offspring whether they be outcrossed, linebred or inbred did not retain the large size. That is b/c the large size is not natural in the APBT & flukes do not reproduce themselves unless that fluke trait is specifically bred for.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

One must also remember that many of the breeds like the Bully Kutta, Gull Terr, & the like, while they are fought in dog vs. dog matches, that is NOT there intended goal for breeding. The are most commonly used in animal fights vs. bears, lions, & other large animals where at least 2 dogs are pitted against the larger animal. Hence their much larger size (although the Gull Terr is smaller since it's a Bully crossed with a Bull Terrier but they are still much larger than the standard APBT). If I remember correctly what I was told, the dog fighting began as just a secondary outlet & used as a "training" method. So again, while the APBT was bred solely for one job, the dogs were too yet their job differed in the main "goal".

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

That's right.....

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

The only real and definitive method to determine that, would be to put down high quality representatives of each breed by weight class and see. Kind of like a World Championship thing. But this of course would have to take place elsewhere...hypothetically.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

I'm new here and this is my first post, so here is my 2 cents worth on our topic at hand...
I think the only one of these other breeds that have a chance is the Tosa Inu, because of their long history in the ring, (notice I said ring). The Japanese would not still use and breed these dogs if they didn't perform as desired. The differance is how they are breed, mostly for power, strength, ability, size; probally generally in that order. The gameness of the Tosa not sought after as with the APBT. In Japanese rules/ culture if you will, If one of these dogs quits in a match he will still most likely be kept and still bred/ cared they think the dog lost honorably and/or had a bad day and could come back to win a championship later. Sorta like in Boxing you don't have to be undefeated to hold the heavy weight championship. In the case of the APBT, most breeders (serious gamedog) want gameness first before the other traits, and size usually doesn't have any concern. If one of their dogs quit in the match it would be lucky to recieve his next meal (maybe not this harsh) but will deffinetly be changing adresses so to speak.
Now the way I see the matching going on, I think it should stay with in the same breed. Meaning APBT vs APBT, Tosa vs Tosa, and that's how I see alot of other people doing it as well. I think if 2 dogmen want to do a private contract and they meet wieghts and/or are ok with the differance....
they can do as they wish with their animals. The 2 breeds are bred for 2 differant aspects of the sport of fighting (in general) and wouldn't do much for either for their perspective breeding programs. The rules of the match would also be a major contributing factor on who wins. In the Japanese Tosa rules the Tosa would have an advantage because there is no outta holds, scratchin involved, the entire match is a constant dragged out match were the Tosa can throw his wieght onto the APBT, constantly pushing and constricting if you will the APBT possibly leaving him to blowout, beat down, smothered etc. Another facter is the APBT's style, if he's what I call a "turning dog"(as in a dog that shows bad signs but still would scratch back), or "crying dog"(wether it's pain or fustration or just crazy ass bulldog) the match will be called asap in favor of the Tosa. If the match is in cajun type rules APBT has hit almost hands down because Tosa's (in general) don't scratch worth alick, it's really not part of their breeding program or schooling, none the less if the Tosa does scratch the gameness will become an issue and the APBT has the gameness period. Now this "theory" would only really come into play if one doesn't kill the other .....

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

I agree with 99 % but i dont believe that a dog can learn to scratch.... I think its ONLY about the breeding program not about schooling.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

I will agree with you, but have heard other peoples' theory on it and wanted to put it out there for both possiblities.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

this thread is real irrelevant and should be removed ASAP. Sorry Rocky but these are the wrong times for this topic. There have been two handfuls of men that have had they're dogs removed and killed from they’re homes by those who had ASSUMED that they were breeding fighting animals. I know that this is suppose to be "for entertainment purposes" but right now, it looks as if a lot of people are more concerned with the fighting aspect of the breed and not the positives, like confirmation shows, weight pulling events and so on. I really cant understand why you want opinions on this subject anyway's. It's seems as if you’re the only one that believes "our box is getting smaller"

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Hey, we didnt make it up abot having 100lb pitbulls did we? Same logic, the working kangals are very nice, NON DOG FIGHTING breed dogs. Besides, over their, the real kangals and owners, all they have is their flock and land, they cant afford to feed some crap for kangals in the first place! Now a 200lb dog would be useless in fighting off wolfs and fighting bears!

Hold on, that may be true, but just like the apbt, some were only bred for the task of fighting to. Remember, 30 yearsa go, few people even knew of the apbt and its fighting tasks! I like youe point though, very good.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

Whaaa waaa whaaaaaaaaat?! :confused: APBT's were known almost exclusively by their fighting tasks up until probably 10-15 years ago! Dog-fighting was popular in this country all the way back to the 1800's with APBT. If anything, 30 years ago most didnt know of weightpulling, conformation with a true gamebred APBT, agility, flyball, and Schutzland with our breed....dog fighting (and the traits that come with a fighting dog) was all they knew about our breed.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

No no, thats not what I meant. The everyday person back then didnt know much of breed until it became really popular. Fore, the reasons being, mostly only other dog men had the breed and used it for the tasks of fighting. The American Staff is an example of not being only bred for fighting. Their still pitbulls, but then again, their not.

Sorry if you were informed, get the point?

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

The Kangal is not a “fighting breed”- won’t ever be one-least not a competitive one! The Bully Kutta is a fighting breed but one that sucks and can’t compete with the ABPT or Tosa Ken hence the reason they aren’t used in Japan or outside of Pakistan and India. They tend to be rank curs at best and didn’t do well in Japan</ST1:p. There were several winning Bully Kutta’s imported by the Pakistani Ambassador for Japanese dogmen and they all failed miserably. The APBT and Tosa Ken rain supreme in the world of fighting breeds! Most don’t give the Tosa Ken its respect in the states because they have only seen poor, overly large examples. The light weight Tosa’s are just a fast and skilled as most APBT’s and have won against them in contest.

For those in the service make the most of it and let Uncle Sam pay for you to witness great working dogs while in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:country-region w:st=<ST1 /><st1:country-region w:st=<ST1:pJapan</ST1:p</st1:country-region>! Lots of working kennels that have Tosa Ken’s and APBT’s so make lemonade out of the lemons! For those members currently on the island take the opportunity to make some contacts and see some shows. This is prime working time over there and in the next few months will be Tosa and Pit shows in <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pTokyo</ST1:p</st1:City>. In April there is the national Kyokai tournament coming up and the regional Fukyukai tournament, also the APCJ pit tournament in mid April in Saitama.

Here is a nice light weight Tosa Inu:

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

zerO: last I checked, plenty of game APBTs lost matches and went on to be bred and score many times. A "game" dog is a dog that will not give up, not necessarily a dog that wins every fight.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

...She did say a dog that QUITS. And yes, generally quitters are culled. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a game loser.