No papers

Let's start an interesting discussion...

Say you have a dog like GrCh 35. No peds, just a random mutt you bought cheap. This "mutt" of yours gets itself to GrCh, and it has everything you want: gameness, mouth, speed, etc, etc, etc.

But no papers.

You have no idea if this dog is truly an APBT, or just a really game mutt. Even if it is an APBT, you still don't even know its lineage.

Do you still breed it? It's a proven dog, after all.
Retire it to be house dog?
Sell it for a high price and let someone else deal with it?

Been spending some time getting schooled, learned about GrCh 35 today, so I'm interested in other's opinions

 

Here's my thought. I place performance above all else. Now if that dog has all I want and I have a bitch that does as well I would do what I want. I would keep as many pups as possible and keep up with the rest. If turn out was not as expected I would cull and never repeat. Every top dog out there has 1 unknown somewhere in the line.


Shotgun
Arkansas

 

I would do like was stated above. I've about come to the point where I feel papers are for those that need to sell dogs. True that of my dogs without papers I know how they are bred but I would definitely test the waters with something that showed me everything I wanted

Sent from my 306SH using Tapatalk

 

Good points both of you, especially this part. I also feel like I would've just bred the dog and keep everything to myself. Maybe give a pup to some really, really, really close friends, but that's it.

It's kind of amusing, this topic came up on a Facebook group and someone said they would just shoot the dog. Don't know if they were a troll or what, but they claimed that felt that a dog with no paper was a "worthless mutt", no matter how many wins it had.

Sad.

 

Breed for gameness not papers. If it proves it's self to be game it deserves to be breed.............

 

You could do what most people in that situation would do......hang some other dogs papers on it. Most people haven't been put to the test like that and would probably fail 75% of the time. I am not advocating doing something like that, but I can see it happening. A lot of people would get $$ fever and couple the proven dog with a bad ass set of false papers to get even more $$.

I personally would breed the dog and let the chips fall as they may. Papers really only allow you to take your dog to a sponsored dog show. Other than that, they are just a luxury and nice to have.There are many papered dogs that you can't be sure of how they are really bred so it puts them on even ground as far as breeding goes. If the dog produces dogs that you like, it's a win-win situation.

 

If the animal passes the eye test for purity, it is a worthy candidate for breeding. If the animal has performed on multiple occasions, with enough experience one could make a vague estimation as to how he's bred based on traits and styles. Select a female with similar or desired traits and go from there. It might be wise to use a family bred go to bloodline female to increase chances of good results; a solid redboy or tab or mayday/blondie female should help the process along.

 

Not knowing how the charge is bred I would say the test is of a type as opposed to the purity of which is unknown unless your speaking on the purity of the heart...

I think theres too many good to greats that come from a steady linage to takes a gamble on raisng pups off an ace of unknown origin and If I recall the 35 dog never really produced that great offspring, but that unknown hienzl looking dog might have made a great catalyst for future generations...
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [212388] :: LEATHERNECKS GUMMY BEAR

 

The eye test I refer to is to breed type. I have seen pictures or videos of many past and present that do not even seem purebred despite what the papers say. That being said, the different families are known for different traits and could best be assessed through seeing them work. Taking an unknown bred dog through to a Gr Ch would give reasonable indications as to what type or even possible family he might have come from. Using bitches from families known to nick with almost anything or known producers should increase the chances of getting decent offspring. From there those offspring could be bred back to the mother's family or breeding could continue around the unknown dog. The goal being to create bulldogs, not pedigrees, if one meets the standards of the owner then it might well deserve the privilege trying to replicate. Think of the many hung or questionable pedigreed dogs that have been scientifically bred as per false papers and there are more than a few people who I would take a dog from and build a yard around without a clue how the papers say its bred.

 

Best hunting dog I have ever owned was a straight mutt and cost me a 32 pack of beer. Only got one litter out her but I'm still hunting her daughter and two good friends of mine have the other 5. Out of a litter of 6 all of the pups turned into awesome hunters. Papers give you an idea of what you're gonna get but they don't make the dog. It's more beneficial I've found to know the parents of the litter than the breeding 5 gens back

 

Fuck papers and let me see what he can produce.I don't care what he did in the pit , I want to see what he throws in his offspring ..Looking for talent to finish.

 

Get rid of all this high dollar stuff and breed him to my best females....start a line with him if he is that good. If only i could go back 20 years ago...no papers just a man that knew how to breed bulldawgs. Damn near bought the whole litter. As stated above I kinda figured to some degree how he was bred but not certain, anyway I bred him aad he produce well....now my only regret was not breeding him enough...go figure.

 

A man named mr fudd that was raised in the country on a ranch with hounds got into bulldogs, got one from one source and another from a cousin, not spending much money at all, if any...
He raised those bulldogs like he did his hounds, good food, exersize and plenty of attentionand he bred a coulpe of generations till he got what he wanted...Mr Fudd and his hounds sure didnt care about any papers and he didnt change his view on the bulldogs... Two out of a litter were exceptional and both dogs travelled and went into honest known compitition and earned the title of champion...
He bred the two together and raised a healthy litter, what would the luck be??? He got another champion out the bunch proving good dogs are wher you find them and sometimes the next breeding you do might get lucky and produce a champion with similar traits as the parents that were honest bulldogs...
Unfourtantly the next generation wasnt availble to continue the storey as they were put down when the man put his family before the dogs, sad ending to an unknown begining, but thats how the man was raised with the work ethic of a champion, and the strength of a father over a good dogman,,, to bad he had to make that decission as the sport can sure use more of his type...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [92039] :: T.W. FUDD'S CH WRANGLER
dont see champion wranglers champion sisters pedigree or thier champion son and never none anyone else to breed to him or that he had a ped at all...
After mr.fudd championed out the dogs, some friends tried to find out the champion siblings linage but it was narrowed down to some loposay and some other old breeder, PERHAPS...

 

I remember watching an old DSK yard tape where they had a 4x of unknown breeding on their yard.. Beat some top flight competition, but they wouldn't breed him because of his lineage (or lack there of)..

 

Remember the name by chance???

 

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [362016] :: T.W. FUDD & STICKBOY'S LUCKY?
Granite...read the notes, does it ring a bell???

then theres the other z-dogs...
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [233743] :: STICKBOY'S CH ZIMA
a young mans first bulldog that he bought from a petstore with no papers that soon got him into trouble with a lifetime addiction...
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [309266] :: STICKBOY'S ZZ 1XW, 1XDGL
whos to say its not to work, if it fits the type the next test is the next generation and so forth...

 

Nope, don't remember the dogs name, but I do remember he was white w/ brindle patches (I think)..


Ol' Lucky and the Z dogs..

 

dogs make the pedigrees not pedigrees make dogs

 

papers are for shows

 

I will not lie i want my dog with papers, but it doesn't mean they all have to have them or they will turn out. Doesn't mean they are even athentic (we all know how that works).

I will say it again some of my best had no papers @ all, truly unknown. Not the typical, I don't have papers on them, but know how there bred. Just good dogs, MAN IT KILLED ME NOT TO KNOW.
I got tired of guessing in my head, he looks like this or that. She acts like this or that..
It was just confusing...

But I will admit with papers the dogs still would have been themselves...hell they didn't know they needed them Lol.