why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Take a look at some working strains of Lakeland terriers and you can see the piggy eyes that are so apparent in bull terriers and some pitbulls.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

That's reading inbetween the lines. Shows brain activity. Well done.
Now add this: The Irish Old Family (Reds) were known for gameness and were called Terrier by them Irish Old Family members.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

As where the staforchire terrier from the black country BEFOR they where reconized as the Staforchire BULL terriers

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Nice try, Limey.
I wasn't looking for general known info. And all I did with my first post was to show you some well known and simple facts. I did not give you my personal opinion about anything except for the things I said about J.P., that he was a Welsh peddl...
If you build some of your thinking on your Irish Colby theory, then it might be just some good info for you to know that J.P. wasn't Irish. That's not coming from me. It's coming from the Colby's themselfs. I, for my part, don't have to be the stickler, who I am, to accept those 'proven' facts. But you seem to be a real truth seeker, so keep your eyes and your mind open at all times.
But, nevertheless, thank you Limey for ALL your posts. I like !
I'm not here to fight for anything. All I do is trying (again and again) to get as much of the whole picture together as possible. And if we all would give just a small piece of history then we might be able to see a big part of that picture.
I still think the Colby's are a good place to start with. J.P. got everything. J.P. did everything. And pretty much is written down somewhere.
- What's the English part in those early Colby dogs ?
- What's the Irish part ?
- Does Irish always means Old Family ?
- And what's the difference in those dogs ?

Limey, you're right, most probably nobody knew where the Old Henry dogs were coming from. But, my question was if YOU THINK they could be down from the Blue Paul/Poll stuff. I don't know either, but it would make at least some sense. And as long as it seem to be possible ... well ...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Here is another aczample these are Bull and terrier(labeld as sutch when i bought them) prints i bought in the uk 25 years ago in a small vilage in the middlands near the irish sea... print nr one Bull and terrier uk 1930 same as print nr 2 both are Bull and terriers


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here are the Staforchire bull terriers from 1934
please tell witch dog on averich represend the APBT the most!!!pictures below ore above!!
the longer muzzle longer legged bull and terrier,
ore the stocky build shorter muzzle SBT.
dont get me wrong there are plenty of apbt that look like SBT""i got one of those types"" its just a global observation where the breed known as the SBT was bred away from and to show that he is a desendand of the bull and terrier known today as the APBT...




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Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Limey do your homework!!!!!!

Some historical facts on the Staffordshire Bullterrier:

Concerning the notices of Steve Eltiner:

The name Stafford has first been used arround the 1920´s!!!!!!!
Before they have been mainly called Bull and Terrier, Fighting - Terrier or Pit - Dog!

Arround 1910 - 1934 Joseph Dunn have been listing 10 different families from the Staffordshire District that have been known to have formed uniformed strains with remarkable traits!
At this time there have been no registered pedigrees but records have been kept and are proven!

The Original Staffordshire Bullterrier Club was founded on 25. 5. 1935!!!!!!
This convention was held in Joe Mallens Old Cross Guns Pub!

There have been people involved like Alf Garrett, whose family have been arround the game for about 80 years at this point. Joe Dunn, Joe Mallen and other known fanciers.
Jack Barnard owner of the Paddock Kennels was the first Chairman of the new founded club.
At this time the name Staffordshire Bullterrier was first used and put on the breed!!!!!!!
Not before!

So let´s check some other historical facts:

Chauncy C. Bennett from Kalamazoo, Michigan founded the UKC in 1898 as registry for the Pitbullterrier.
At this time it was common use to set the prefix "American" in front of a breeds name, so for example within the American Eskimo Dog and others!

As Bennett was the oppinion that the prefix American would help to gain the breed more popularity he was the main initiator in giving the breed the name American Pit Bullterrier for obvious reasons!

So the Staffordshires of olden days have been exactly the same dogs as the Pit Dogs in the United states!!!!

Also their size was similar and have been lowered down by the Breed Club in UK in 1948 for whatever reason.

Before the standard written down by Joseph Dunn was made as a description of the best dogs he knew of, similar to the ADBA Standard origins!

That you can´t consider them the same breed after 1935 anymore is ok and in the USA independend lines have been formed by the fanciers over there but still, basically it´s the same origin just selected for other reasons!

As some historical facts also: Pete Sparks had some Staffordshire Bullterriers too!!!!!!
And I won´t doubt that maybe Tudor have bred some into his stock!

As a fact in the beginnings of the American Staffordshire Terrier, the imported Staffordshire Bullterriers have been considered the same breed by the AKC and therefore have been also crossed into the American Staffordshire Terriers!

So if the show people have been trapped by thinking it´s the same breed, why shouldn´t it have been the other way arround?

As there have been various examples of dogs that have been bred into the Pit stock and the other way arround at the beginnings of the STCA.

There´s a rumor that keeps on circuling that Maurice Carver have been good friends with a pretty known Am Staf breeder called Peggy Harper and her Har - Wyn kennels.
And rumor goes that Maurice ocassionally get a dog or two at a time from her!

Also Paul Sofiakis was associated with Peggy Harper as he was also breeding American Staffordshire Terriers under the Prefix Herc! It´s a proven fact!

So I´m also the oppinion that the early englisch Bullterriers have been crossed into the American Pit Bullterrier on occassion!

So did it also happen over here in Europe! You know what I´m talking about Limey!

Another Example is the Psycho dog from UK that was half Staffordshire Bullterrier half English Bullterrier if I remember correctly and theses guys breeding these dogs didn´t seem to mind anyways!

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

In addition this picture only resembles some local dogs of the Staffordshire County!

So they are only a small number of dogs from two or three families shown here and as you know, each line has it´s certain characteristics! So Sorrells dogs don´t look like Eli dogs etc.

So in addition you might google for picture of the Great Hertfordshire Open Show, held 20. 06. 1935 !!!!

Or google for Jim the Dandy or Champion Lady Eve!

Looking quite different from the dogs within the picture you posted!

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Picture of Gentleman Jim can be found on
www.new-aera-staf.com

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

correction!!!!

www.new-era-staff.com

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

DO MY HOME WORK!!!.
What are you trying to say that we dont know that plenty of pitbull terriers uptill today are DUAL registerd as am stafs as wel. Hell patricks red baby ""you know the one bred to tombstone"" was a 50% AM STAFF, joe Corvino sold his dogs as am staffs and as pitbull terrier even ST whatever you wanted to have!!!.

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the staforchire bull terrier was priviusly known as the staforchire terrier /ore Bull and terrier OFCOURS thats my whole point!!. but sins he hase been bred ""away"" from the orignal dog and the pit bull terrier ""isend"" we can say that the SBT is a desendand of that origenal dog known today as the APBT, is that so hard to understand.
fact that sp[oreticly the bullterrier in his EURLY form and the SBT where crossed back into the BUll and Terrier thusend change the fact that our breed is stil the origenarl bull and terrier breed. the whole infleuns of the show bred bullterrier and SBT for that matter have been and would always be ubsorbt by the origenal breed they where where origenaly bred of.
for the simple rezen that the foundation gene pool of the bull and terrier(apbt) being the stronger genes pool as they where not bred away from there work!! and there confermation was detirmend due to there work.
last but not least if YOU would have done your homework then you could have read a couple of posts back that i never said that the sbt and the bullterrier where never bred back to the Bull and terrier (APBT). i mearly disclaimed that the APBT was of SBT ore Bullterrier desendands. its the other way around..

last but not least consirning the Irish stafords being a cross with a bull terrier your WRONG that was the STORMER dog and he was a SBT Bullterrier cross!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
the Irish stafford where tought to belived to be the last pure fighting staford strain of great britan.
fact is that i was on top of those dogs in the eurly 80,s and the insiders can tell you that those dogs where known as the POOR MANS PITBULLS, as in the mid and highlands people didnot had a lot of money.
so insted of being able to buy pure bred pitbulls they bred SBT to pitbulls, and some called them irish stafords!!.
Maurice Dan the biggest puppy peddler in the UK at the time and sold lots of them how do i know i was there and my frind sold his of to him !!!.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

PS the bullterrier blood used into these stormer dogs where i belive from a irish bullterrier called ch nathan he beat the crap out of 3 pitbull terriers and for years carried the long distanse record overthere 2,20 min. note he did NOT represented the bullterrier as we know them ,as they ore he was from a hunting and working strain..

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

No I got you! LOL!!!!!!

Same thing over here in germany! Sold Bullterrier / American Staffordshire Terrier crosses as APBT!

You did own yourself an English Bullterrier if I remember correctly, how about this dog?

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

hahahahah he was the first dog i ever had!!!!!! he was a bullterrier x mini bulterrier cross!!38lbs ...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

I´m keeping Miniatures myself and I consider them the better of these two breeds as they have far more temperament!
Just for info are there any working strains left back in England concerning the English Bullterriers?

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Limey your spot on again, form always follows function not the other way round, the sbt is an offshoot of the working bull and terrier (APBT)

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Indeed the miniatures seem to be more of the old typ of stock and yes very temprament full they seem to have more stamyna as wel for a show breed. its because they are lesser populair i gues and not bred to pieces like there bigger brother... you best bet is ireland, but that will be a toughf path in finding the ones you whant

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Since the general ban in germany they grew like mushrooms and are quite marketed arround!

I do keep some older and not so sold out lines and they are gorgeous with lots of drive!

As for the English Bullterrier, we had pretty good working stock over here!

All based upon the hard work of Rudolf Sewerin and the Bullterrier Verein e. V., they did hog hunting, and extreme working dog contests like the Candy Pokal and other stuff!

After the general ban is whiped out and we only have bans depending on the state we are eagerly trying to recreate these working lines but there are only a few dogs left and therefore we do need foreign blood to refresh the old lines.

Thing is we don´t want to cross show stock in!

And many people that claim they have working stock are ducking down if they see how we do test our dogs and if asked if they want to try it with their own simply run off! LOL!!!!!!!!

Do you think Ed Reid and his IKC can point us into some people?

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Damon just had a post up but my pc crashed wil put on up later tonight

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Limey- Clear your inbox to allow PM

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland



Did someone mention Jim and Eve? There ya go....top right...left is Jim, right is Eve