why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

limey what book are those pages from? i know the art work is art work but the book i would like to get since you say its not expensive. there is a nice bit of info here for anyone looking at the far past history of the breed. lots of good info.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

hard luck right now im bidding on one of those books, witch looks fairly new. mine hase been used so ofthen its slowly braking up and restoring it cost more then buying a good used one. in a couple of hours when i hopefully win the bidding , il let you know(dont whant to bid against you hahah). when i did a sirtsh i could not get it as ez as back then!!!.. never the less im highest bid so far is 20 usd!!!!!..
il let you know tomorrow..

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

"the Dog" by Stonehenge I have three copies but as a book collector i do not sell but there is an 1867 copy on Ebay right now.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

On Alibris rare books it can be found at various prices there is also a 2008 reprint. The only problem with the reprint is blurred and missing print plus images.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

http://www.archive.org/details/doginhealthandd00walsgoog

You can also read it for free along with many others online.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

http://www.archive.org/stream/everythingaboutd00eberrich#page/n291/mode/2up

free to read online.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

http://www.archive.org/stream/completedogbook00bruegoog#page/n249/mode/2up

free to read online

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

http://www.archive.org/stream/generalcharacte00taylgoog#page/n32/mode/2up

as above

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

how do i remember what page i"m on ?? lol

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Nothing beats the real thing i just orderd another one!!. try Ebay ore big book sellers on line.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

A warm controversy has long been maintained among dog fanciers as to the
antiquity of the bulldog ; but the above-mentioned fact would serve to show that
the greyhound, at all events, is the older and purer variety of dog, since it is
admitted by all experienced breeders that whenever a cross is attempted between
two animals of a different strains, the older and purer strain very soon shows and
maintains a marked predominance. In my first attempt at defining our various
breeds of dogs, published in the year 1859, I describe a series of crosses made by
the late Mr. Hanley, who was an enthiusiastic courser of that period, with a view
to further improve the greyhound by a second infusion of bull blood, which
had previously been found advantageous by Lord Orford and others. Putting a
high-bred bull-dog "Chicken" (by Bum's Turk out of sister to Viper) to a greyhound
bitch, the produce showed very little of the bull, having not the slightest vestige of
" stop," no lip, and a pointed muzzle, with a body nearly as light as that of the
dam. The produce of the next cross with the greyhound were wholly greyhound-
like in appearance, but, though they were moderately fast, they could not stay a
course, and this defect continued to the last, when the experiment was terminated
in the sixth generation by Mr. Hanley's death. His want of success has most
probably prevented a repetition of the cross ; but, as far as one example goes, it
tends to show that the bulldog is not, what many of his admirers contend he is —
the oldest and purest breed of modem dogs.

It is quite logical that the off-spring of such a cross would be pointless and take away the main weapon of the Greyhound "its Speed". When talking to my wife's family have have been in racing and coursing all of their lives and have combined 170 years of daily knowledge could not quite believe how anyone could believe any such cross would improve the greyhound and how a 13 yo bitch could produce at-all.
Why would anyone want a slower sight hound.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

although i agree with you 99jakc to a point, the crossing of a greyhound and a bull & terrier (50-50%) may not be the greatest asset to a hunter looking for speed. many hunters including myself, may want a dog that posses stamina, grip and determination. I would like to see my lurcher do a good and smart job rather than a simple quick one. maybe a product of a 50/50 cross back to a speedy hound, the results can sometimes take us by surprise. for example: although i wouldnt spend so much money in a dogo argentino, i believe it to be a very good hunter with decent speed that will run for hours and get the job done. after all my idea of all this is to have fun in a hunt and not have the wild animal caught in the first 10 minutes. if chasing hare is what you're refering to, then by all means a grey should be enough for the coursing.

this is not set on stone, this is just my opinion anyway

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

100% with you 12 gauge and it is all about opinions on what we think a good dog is !? My cousin DP during late 70s/early 80s used to hunt on the borders going after hare,Deer etc you would always see a deer and a dozen hare and gamebirds hanging in his coal shed, i used to hate the smell when he was gutting things. His fav cross was always to a Deer hound but his best dog was a saluki/whippet cross which he used along with his jack russells which would wait next to the bolt hole while the smaller dogs went to ground and he claimed it never missed the mark. he still has two Deerhounds only as pets though.

ps MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL, and the best to all our dogs(the ones weve got and the ones weve had) All the very best to 2012.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Im not sure why this piece is put on anyway . is it for the sake of argumend!!?? ore to prove that a greyhound became slower!. ofcours thats the case!! , But this cross was done on a regulair bases!!!.
It also prooves that these crosses with the bulldog where done with LOTS of breeds. and thats the point of this topic!. The Bull and Terrier is build up MAINLY out of bulldog x terrier croses but plenty of other bulldog crosses where bred in.
Hensh the viriety of shapes and sizes and coloration in our breed!!.
A greyhound cours is what a 1/4 to halve a mile dash. the crosses where ""not"" only used for small animals!! like the rabbits and the hare witch is ""primarely"""" the greyhounds prey to catsh in open field!!,..
The crosses had ""more"" in them to get the bigger stuff, as a gryehound is, dispite al the muscle and body fisics a very fragile animal!! due to his small narrow weak head!!!! and he is build on a very LIGHT FRAME causing him to sprain muscles and break bones on regulair basis. and he is NOT suted to hunt in denser bush and ore terain that isend flat!!.

So its not the case of the greyhound getting slower due to the bulldog cross, but its the case to make the bulldog blood FASTER in order to be able to do more types of WORK. its the bulldogs GAMENESS(courage) and stronger fisics that was sought in improving these varius breeds he was bred to.
a nice passage in this book as wel is, out of the Crossing and crossed breeds section.

Crossing is practised with two distinct objects iun view:-- 1st, To prevent degeneration in consequence of keeping to the sam blood, or what is called "in-and-in" breeding; and 2dly, With the view of improving particular breeds when they are deficient in any desirable quality, by crossing with others which have it in perfection or often excess. The first of these will be better understood after alluding to the pratictise of "in-and-in" breeding; but the second may be considered with advantage. Among dogs, as among horses, certain varieties are remarkable for particular qualities, and as the latter are more numerous in the species Canis familiaris than in the horse, so,there is a greater opportunity for alteration. Thus in the horse there are speed, stoutness, courage, temper, and shape (which includes action) to be considered; but in the dog there are also, over and above these, nose abd sagacity, the presence or absence of which in some breeds is the greatest unoirtance.

Now it happens that there are certain OLD strains which have some of these qualities developed in a very high degree, but are DEFICIENT in others, and therefore they are only adapted to those breeds in which the qualities they are deficient in excess.

It is by a knowledge of these properties, and by taking a ADVANTAGE of them, that our modern breeds have been brought to the PERFECTION at which they have arrived; carefully combining the plan with the principle of selection, which us the great secret in all kinds of breeding,
In this way the foxhound has been produced by introducing at the SPEED of the greyhound, and in like manner the courage(gameness) of the bulldog has been added to the speed of the greyhound, to establish the present HIGH FORM of that animal.

SO also the terrier though ardent enough in pursuit in vernim, is too great a COWARD to bear their bited without flinching unless he is CROSSED with the BULLDOG ; and hence the bull-terrier is the most useful dog for that purpose. Although many breeds of terrier so crossed are NOT ADMITTED to contain the bull strain, still it is notorious that a VAST proportion, if not ALL, have been crossed in this way some generations back and I firmly believe without this blood in their veins they are UTTERLY USELESS .


It might naturally be supposed by any person who has not been CONVINCED to the contrary, that it would take SEVERAL crosses to get rid of the heavy form of the BULL-DOG when united with the light and graceful shape of the greyhound
. But on actually trying to experiment it will readily be seen that in the THIRD generation very little trace remains of the bull-dog, while in the fourth there is none whatever apparent in the external form.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

There is nothing wrong with crosses and if you need a certain type of dog and nothing comes upto scratch why not, The point i think you are missing LK is the following.
" The produce of the next cross with the greyhound were wholly greyhound-
like in appearance, but, though they were moderately fast, they could not stay a
course, and this defect continued to the last, when the experiment was terminated
in the sixth generation by Mr. Hanley's death. His want of success has most
probably prevented a repetition of the cross ;"
The above was written by the author of your book 'THE DOG' Stonehenge in his much later book 'The dogs of the British isles' quoted by himself as his most accurate and important work. The above means that the experiment was a failure and these lines were not bred to therafter. It is a simple fact, the first mention of the famous bitch giving birth at 13 yo is laughable.
The pitbull is a great dog but IS NOT the original Bulldog, The original Bulldog was To the quote "POOR AS A DOG FIGHTER" not quick enough to attain first hold against the Terrier crosses. If you have ever worked with a terrier that has no Bull breeding you will know that when their blood is up they will also die trying and would never give up.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Ps the above was written LK NOT FOR Argument as you put it but to share information and debate historic points of fact, after all even the author of 'THE DOG' changed his opinion. We all have our Opinions but if we quote and use picture from the past then very few dogs would look like the dogs from the past. The pitbull type is a ordinary type which can be produced by many mongrel crossings, and by type i mean the general look of the dog.
My friend had his dog taking off him and destroyed by the courts it was staff/Lab cross looked like Pitbull and he could not prove otherwise.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

"The crosses had ""more"" in them to get the bigger stuff, as a gryehound is, dispite al the muscle and body fisics a very fragile animal!! due to his small narrow weak head!!!! and he is build on a very LIGHT FRAME causing him to sprain muscles and break bones on regulair basis. and he is NOT suted to hunt in denser bush and ore terain that isend flat!!."
Our dogs must be tougher then, because we dont have vast flat areas and the Greyhounds excel they are very tough and have good bone they need this to propel themselves at over 40 mph, and my wifes uncle CM would tell you that you would not want one of these fellas hurtling towards your little bull terriers doing a pass at high speed with a quick nip on the nape of the neck as he puts it "speed kills".

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

LK not sure if you are interested but this is on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LARGE-ANT...409?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58908c4b11

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

I have had Jack Russell's killed in the field,hunting.So terriers sure will give thier life.I will always keep a couple of Jack Russell's around.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Jack Russell's are great little dogs with great character and more pluck than your average terrier, my wifes mother and her son have three and to see these hanging around the flews of my 106lb American bulldog as though they are world champions is a laugh, my ABD bitch stands 25" at the shoulder has a 24" neck and is so gentle with little dogs and people but not so trusting to larger dogs/natural leg dog while doing arial 360. Is it natural for ABD to go legs then do an airborne 360 to get top then she sits on them and looks down on them. she always sits on the other dog when its grouned whether in play or when attacked.