When is a dog considered a good producer?

i like jeep to . but i had different friends go to the yard and say there' s 30-60 bitches on the yard and half were bred to him . but if that did'nt happen we would'nt have the dogs we have off him today to use . a good produce can put out litters that you get a high % of working dogs . or it could also be the one that was bred alot of times and put out some good ones here and there . it's all in how you see how a producer should produce to your liking .

 

Ppl are high on cuda offspring and think he was a helluva producer and I don't see it that way!..I think lukane and machobuck produced way better than cuda but he is rom and is considered a good producer to some!..I wouldn't own a damn thing off him but that's just me...but wat he has accomplished I have to say he is a good producer cause he have produced some good hounds (just not the ones I've seen)...all this looking 2 and 3 generations down the line makes nosense to me because he has to produce for u to see those dogs in the 2nd and 3rd generation, am I not right??..if he's not producing good dogs then how would u see dogs in the 2nd and 3rd gen??...that's why that theory makes nosense to me!!...I think ppl are trying to put more into this which is not needed...if he is producing winning dogs he is a good producer!!...how can one not be a good producer and he's producing winning offspring???...I need for ngk and limey to tell me this cause I don't understand wat they are getting at!..I've thought about it and tried to see were they were coming from but it's not clicking for me...lol...I'm not trying to be funny, I'm just trying to see where they are coming from with their theory

 

Good Point Old Goat ...

 

Now I can agree to this post OG!!...I just don't understand why one has to wait 2 and 3 gens down the line to say if he's a good producer!!..makes nosense to me at all!!

 

Someone explained to me about the whole ROM thing and how it's not as impressive as it's made out to be.... I wish I could remember what he said LOL But my head hurts right now.... I have heard different things about Barracuda I think he has a very impressive box record but from what I have heard he was not as good of a producer as Mayday not even close.

 

Crushbones unfortunatly it thussend work that way(in my book) as many genes from the bitch are involved of making a dog as wel sometimes iven more importend then the male.
If we talk about a good producer then we talk about more then winning ore game dogs.
we talk about him putting a STAMP on his ofspring in the first second and yes iven third generation. (aczample) if lets say a alligator stud(eze for me to use) is bred to a redout cross bitch ore a 50/50 bitch and produces a liter of 6 and 4 of them are a visual tropwback to him in every way. then he puts his mark on them .
Now IF those males ORE bitches that rezamle him the most are bred to unrelated dogs but STILL produce 3 ore 2 out of 6 pups that have there trowback to the male, there grand daddy so to speak, then you KNOW the stud dog hase stronge genes that push tru. in the past i got some flak when i said that dogs are often NOT what the pedegrees tell us .
People should read dogs in sted of pedegrees!!!. a 25% alligator ore Jeep dog on paper could be a 75% trowback to Jeep ore alligator.
reconizing Type and color and everyting els tells you ACZACKLY if s stud dog is a strong producer ore not.
There are plenty of dogs that are outstanding in producing in there own famely but are shooting crap when out crossed. this meens that he is NOT a great producer iven if he puts several CH dogs on the ground.
because THEN your breeding on the famely genes, and NOT on a individual!!!!!!!. i might get some flak for this necst line but dogs like Jeep frisco and those kind of dogs who have there butts bred of i do not rate as great ore iven good producers.
dogs that are promoted and ore get hyped up afher they have a couple of hits in a FAMELY breeding are NOT great ore iven good producers. I know because i had some!!!.and seen others from other famelys.
If you also look at the shear NRS of bitches some males are bred to and look at the averich quality dog compeard to the nrs he hase been producing. then dogs like jeep and frisco are NOT umong the great producers, now dont confuse this with quality producing within the famely..

I also read that tudor,s Dibo,s ofspring produced very wel . wel i have to disgree. i remember a articel that floats around her on the net where it sais that Earl tudog was very happy as he had made 2500 usd in one month breeding Spike to 25 bitches!!!!!!!!!!!!!. why is it that we in our foundation witch is manly tudors dibo dont see alot of tudor,s spike ofspring in our peds???. what happend to all those pups!!!

the awnser is that Dibo didnt produce more game dogs then others, BUT he was the FIRST dog that was able to produce hard mouthed dogs!! in higher NRS. and his ofspring as wel.
same gose for jeep and frisco, lots of frisco dogs tend to have a lack of gameness. but you sure as hell need a durable one when facing them. anyway feel like im wandering off of the subject so il stop ........

 

Lmao!!..u were wandering off the subject, happens to all of us sometime..but bacc on the subject..now u have more knowledge than me about these hounds and I respect u for a dogman because of wat u have accomplished in the game but I think u are wayyy off on this subject!!...I do to believe in strong genes coming from the sire needs to be in his offspring!..a offspring that has traits and characteristic and looks like his sire has a better chance of producing like the sire on all levels!..I do believe that but u can't judge a producer that is putting winning hounds on the ground like the way u are!....so just because a producer offspring doesn't look like him but have other traits like him makes the sire not to be a good producer????....I can't go with that!...jeep was a producer, a great producer!!..his offspring can come out brindle, as long as they are winning and showing jeep traits then it doesn't matter if the dog looks like him or not!!...that's pretty deep limey and I respect ur wisdom but I can't go with that right their!!

 

The history of the game is based on good producers.

These good producers show up in every generation as far back as we can see and read.

In each generation a new dog takes the place of the old producer but the name of the line remains.

When a dog surpasses the ability of his ancestors to produce the name of the line changes.

If that dog has no offspring that are able to produce, the line dies, even though that line has survived the test of time previous to its end.

A dog must produce dogs that are able to carry on the lineage of the family to be called a good producer.

Why do you think that Tab was called a good producing Jeep dog, or Mayday was called a good producing Yellow dog?

I believe that it was Tab and Maydays way of carrying on the old truths of the familys lineage so that people would recognize them as producers of FUTURE PRODUCERS.

Why else would you buy a dog with famous names in the ped if you wern't interested in preserving that bloodline into the future?

If 2-3 generations back is important (if it wasn't you wouldn't need peds) then why wouldn't 2-3 generations forward be?

I can see where your confusing this Crush, and can understand it because I was young at one time too, Its something your going to have to come to understand in time and when you do you will say to yourself "DAMN THATS WHAT THEY MEANT!!!!!"

NGK

 

This is why this make nosense to me cause every line has somebody to carry it's blood in the future!!...I don't even use tab blood, I use Garrett's little Redboy, tab's brother!..I think he was a better overall producer than tab IMO!!...I can name a dog that has carried the blood on in every bloodline!!...mayday is a cross so I wouldn't say he's a yellow dog!!......every bloodline has one or more that carry on the line!...

 

You said it yourself at the end of your post "every bloodline has one or more to carry on the line !" These are the dogs that I consider producers.

NGK

P.S. as long as they produce producers, lol.

 

so if u grab a bitch and a male, and both of them have what u called pre-potend, than u have competition of who the better producer out of those 2 top producing bulldogs, who will pre-potend on the other.

so if someone bred to a cur, but because of the great dog behind he bred him, and turned out that curcan pre potend, and bring like him self and worse, for three generations, than u screwed right lol

 

I think a dog is a good producer when he produces winners crossed or within his family. Stick him to a bitch and he will producere winners regardless of how they are bred. And the dogs put of him got to produce the same aswell.. If he only produces winners that dont produce themselves, then hes just a dog that produces winners, and the blood stops with them.
You want a winner that produce winning offspring that are better or atleast as good as the parents, and can continue to do so

 

eeeh yes and NO your missing the point a bit.
Pre-Potention is the abilety to produce QUALITY genes tru and im not talking about the mental state(gameness) only witch is OFTEN a random case of quality mental genes coming from the foundation gene pool of lets say the pups parends grandparends great grand parends(famely bloodline) ecetera.
witch together pushes tru.
it is becuase of this that its posible to breed quality game dogs out of cur parends and ore less disireble dogs.
however you do stack up on the weak genes as wel doing this IF you use these quality performer dogs out of cur ore less disirebele parends. and line ore inbreed on them.
ofthen its a matter of a couple of generations and being unlucky befor you loose it al..

I knew wel known dogman who i wil not name who bought and ore bred quality bred dogs together, but who where poor performers themselfs and ore lackt the gamenss genes and bred of of them. claiming sometimes gameness and quality ""skips"" a generation!!!!. and you know what they dogs where sucsesful....

Now when you have a ecseptional producing dog he ore she wil also produce the likes of himself fisical type and coloration will come along with the pacage.. there wil be NO visible ore trowback genes that wil rize up in his pups!!!from previus awnsesters. this kind of producer is a OUTSTANDING dog. a super producer
a dog so strong who is able to produce a intire bloodline on his own. this is called a Pre-potend dog.
very seldom do you see pre-potend males and bitches being bred together like Tombstone x red baby and Nelis x Tug(picture included)


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But when they are bred together they ofthen produce a legasy that il be around for decades.

as a breeder ore a studend ore a dogman. you should and must be lucky to pick up on those dogs as soon as they arive in this world. and you should be on them like a fly on shit!!!.
It can be your ticket to fame and ore your home runn. lots of dogman keep chasing dogs like that there intire careers and never get them and ore get acses to them.
If so then line breeding on agood quality famely WILL produce good dogs. but the dogs used are per defenition NOT good producers , but mearly good performer dogs...

 

u are going to get producers nomatter wat dude!!...these dogs have been reproducing their selves for centurys now!!..WTF!!...bullyson produced mc, buster, chivo, honeybunch and a host of others...Eli Jr produced stomper Jr, Eli II, Eli III, black shine, orphan annie (anny II), tadpole, hurt, art, nighttrain and a host of others that are not rom dogs but produced bulldogs!!....if your stud dog is producing winning dogs then some of those offspring will produce more winning offspring!!...u breed bulldog to bulldog 7 out of 10 times ur going to get bulldogs!!...ur point still hasn't made any since to me!!...I'll bet 10,000 dollars on this right here, if I breed a stud that's producing to 3 different bitches and I get 3 or more ch's out of each litter, I bet atleast 3 of those dogs will produce bulldogs when the time comes!!...the definition of a producer is one meaning!!..a dog that produces winning dogs!!...how in the hell is he going to be a producer if ur breeding for his offspring to be producers!!...dats the craziest shit Ive ever heard!!...if he's producing dogs that are winning Then that is considered to be a good producer!!!!!..if u say that's not a good producer then something is wrong with u!!..IMO!!

 

all i have to say is breeding to a known cur is dooms day . limey you sound like mayfield .

 

Its as simple as I stated. Good producing dog produces good dogs period. If you had to wait for 2-3 generations to find that out you would of wasted alot of potential breedings to your good producing dogs. A good producing line of dogs are what these guys are talking about. when you start talking 2-3 generations you are no longer talking about a good producing dog, you are talking about good producing dogs. Which to me would be a good producing line of dogs. Pretty simple if you break it down and think about it. Good producing dog is one dog that produces good. To get to your 2-3 generation test you need to first have a good producing dog.

 

Exactly!!..so simple a caveman can understand it!!

 

That was a bangin ass post Lonewolf and easy for me to understand LOL

 

Here's the thing on cuda and mayday

The first few breedings from mayday were game changers and were the best. Produced from the first few years
Barracuda
600
Noriega
Lukane
Oso
Haunch
Da Brat
May May

But after a while Mayday started to "hit and miss" while still in Miami. After Victor moved to Ecuador Mayday's percentages went down and then he wasn't hitting at all. Because of his first breeding that produced dogs like cuda, may may, and haunch, the demand and desire for dogs off mayday increased. So Mayday was breed to any and every female on Victor's yard so his production took a hit.

Out of his Grandkids, Big Head was probably his best. A son of cuda. Cuda was the same, produced great in the first few breedings, went to Ecuador and pulled a Mayday. Not to mention the dogs that were hung that were not really cuda dogs.

Out of the 3 Gr Ch sons of Mayday, I'd say the best production was haunch then Cuda

 

I will respectfully disagree and have to go with lukane!!