Using color in breeding??

I am torn by this article, but only because of my personal experience. I bred a litter that was whelped in August of '05. 4 Males were born, 2 were pied, 1 a chocolate, and one chocolate brindle, all red nosed. The chocolate male had one blue eye, just like his mother. He is the only one to resemble the mother in any way, and his temperment is exactly likes hers, right down to the pouting when you scold him. He is damn near her clone, aside from the solid chocolate color (she was chocolate w/ a white head). The other three males have a bigger head, bigger bone, carry the same broom stick tail as thier father and the same happy go lucky temperment. These same malese are still very puppy like in their attitude towards other dogs (just like their father was at the same age). The blue eyed brother became very turned on by the age of 6-7 months just like his father. I guess what I'm getting at, is that I understand what the article is saying. What ever you think about it though, it was a good read. Thanks for posting!

 

I figured that would happen I tried to make it as simple and cut as possible. Ok let me try again in simpler terms each chromosome is a marker and when the sperm and egg unite they splite and rebond into a whole new set of genes. Randomly placed in the splitting and reformation of these genes each marker on each sided add a mutiple into the equation. you have so many in the sperm and the same number in the egg. howevery many chromosomes are in the dogs genetic make up is the factor of powers in the math equation. This is more of a math problem once you ditch all the science stuff. Maybe that will help. male has xy female has xx each has two so your number for each is 2. Number of cromosomes is the power to mutiply that 2 by. powers are 2x2=4 then 4x2 is 8 and so on till you do that the exact number of chomosomes a dog has. It is that simple. and that is the odds that 1 dog will exactly match the parents. What ever that number is for one parent times itself equils the odds on a single pup. That is it as simple as I know to put it.
Sorry I never was a good teacher just a good student. In my mind I think it is simple but others think electrical devices are easy and I don't get them at all out side of measurments of energy and such are concerned.

 

Hmmm. I just finished my Algebra class yesterday with an 95 average and I still don't get it. I read it twice!
Are you saying that some pups have more genetic material of one parent than an other? Or are you saying each and every pup has the same ammount of genetic material. Even if they have the same 50/50 they can still inherit different qualities right?

Are you agreeing with this article? I want to understand your brain.

 

Thats because this is genetics, not math :p

The basics are fairly easy to understand once you lay it all out in front of you. Do a google search for "heterozygous" "homozygous" (I know I butched the spelling on both of them, so however google recommends to spell it...go with that,lol). Recessive and dominant alleles(sp?). And the square that tells the probability of what traits will be present (both shown, and hidden). Sorry, its been awhile since I've bothered with this stuff so the names are off, and I cant even think of what the scientific square is :o but you should be able to find a good site on google no problem.

 

good read. i'm almost as lost as when i started. i get the main idea though. i better quit while i'm still ahead. thanks guys and gals.

 

Or are you saying each and every pup has the same ammount of genetic material. Even if they have the same 50/50 they can still inherit different qualities right?


Yes to the above. Exactly and the odds of that 50/50 chance are the sum of the 2 strands multiplied by the markers in powers. odd for each parent are in the millions to give that 50% a exact match to the parent and same in the other So the odds of matching a grand parent are even futher apart.. Because that is down to 25% and the odds that were generated into producing the parents. It just comes down to a very unlikely probability that out side of color and build that a dog will ever match geneticaly to a parent not alone a grandparent are slim. Think about organ and blood donation. Your parents don't always match your blood type even do they? No and it isn't likely that your siblings will be a close enough match to do so either with organs. Maybe blood type but not a givin. Now think of the vast number of genetic possibilites for the complete being. The article doesn't have the grasp of genetics to be accurate. It isn't a simple event. Not even remotely simple. Because in the 50% of each parents the genes splice with the other parents and they not only split by cross over and some even override the other. The factors are too extream to come up with matches to a parent not alone a grand parent or sibling. Yes each parent donates the same numbers but the process becomes very mathimatically complex past that point. eash parent is going to give a strand so that is half its chromosomes which half is a factor to concider because it isn't a givin. and yest one strand of that came from grand ma and the other grandpa of that parent. Inbreeding increases odds being close but not by much. It more increases the odds of passing on genetic ressesive faults because they are ressesive and there has to be two of a kind to make it happen. Albinoism is one fault, chromosomal dissorders are what they are called. Genetics is something I had to study for years to understand. I will do my best to explain it as good as I can.

William

 

Sorry bro. I am trying to Make it simple it just isn't lol. Sorry for smoking the brain cells and firing up the ole motor of genetical desyphering. lol The calculations become math I was trying to explain why the numbers and leave just the numbers to mess with in a math formula as more understand math than genetics. I should have just said yes or left it alone. Maybe I can provolk some learning and studying as this is as important to breeding as any other factor.

 

This topic is making me think. LOL

 

Well, my brain is definately smoking at this point!!LOL I am sure that you will think me stupid, but that's quite allright!!HaHa
When I pick a puppy from another breeder, or from my own litter, I just know what I am wanting through observation. Color, head size/shape, body size, attitude, disposition, color, ...I really dontknow what I look for, but I know it when I see it.
I had a guy ask me the other day what I looked for in a good bulldog, and I was stumped. I have been around these dogs for 22 years and can(not 100% of the time, but most)tell about the dog by looking. I think that is what the article is saying. I have this same problem when I go to the doctor. He says what's wrong, I say I dont feel good. He asks these detailed questions that I have no idea. My head has been hurting. He says well, is it a throbbing pain or a piercing pain? Man, all I know is that it hurts and then I try and focus on something else!! So, there. I have unveiled my ignorance.
I do know this, when I breed an exceptional dog, and one in the litter comes out looking just like the adult, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'll be keeping that one.
As to the inbreeding thing. I dont.Where I live now, the vets tell them to do it, and they all are sold on it. I have noticed that some of the older dog men did it, every once in a while. Am not saying that I never would, but in 22 years, 15 of which have been involved in breeding, I have not. I do however line breed. I was taught and have seen with my eyes what that kind of breeding can do, and am sold on that until I am convinced otherwise. I try and remain teachable.

The obvious does not always work as others have stated. Breed two short dogs together thinking they'll throw short pups, giants appear! It is truely amazing. I do like this internet thing as you can trace the geneology very well, but many people are book smart and studied on these(and I am not saying that is a bad thing, I need to spend more time with it), but have no working knowledge of how it all works. You can take an online welding class and know all that there is to know about it, but when the rubber meets the road it is a different story.
I will never be greatful enough that I was allowed to be around the horse track for awhile, and that is where my schooling came from for these dogs. Allot of people who are really into the horse races, I mean travelling from race season to race season, are into the dogs also.
As to the genetic language, I do need to learn more, but just from the couple of posts with that lingo, I am intimidated.
I'll shut up now!LOL
Jay
Oh, Here's the little male.

 

Whether he is right or wrong that was a good read

 

Purplepig I don't think your stupid. Any one that is open to learn can't be stupid. I spent many years studying that stuff. But Many people loose me in the blood lines. My dogs all are supposed to be of some of Boudreaux dog lines and two with Juan's Gotti the stud I used is supposed to be of Boudreaux also but I don't see where actually. It say's it on my registration papers it seems if I don't know the where it shouldn't be on my reg papers but it is. I know it is 5 gen on two of my female dogs and I can't really figure out where on my stud dog which I have dudes papers pedigree and the reciept of when he bought it. I have allot of science stuck in my head but the paperwork stuff stumbles my mind. I need a partner that can sypher that stuff out for me. I would actually love a partner and handler to do the showing and pulling. I can handle the labratory work and most medical aspects of raising dogs and livestock. Been doing it all my life really. The show part I understand, Conformation, agility, obedience and that sort. the Weight pulling is a bit new to me. I am green there. I also have crowd problems and would like a out going front person. Run the spot light part while I say off to the side and out of the crowd. I am no smarter than the next guy.

 

Color preferrence should not really be a main priority when breeding or picking a quality dog IMO

The main factors should be:
Temperament, Structure, Working Drive/ability, Overall Health, how the dog stacks up to the breed standard. People should be looking for the total package especially in a breeding program.
Color is just one small piece of the puzzle with out the larger more important componants are what is important

IMO it is Ok to have a color preference but only after all the other much more important things have been looked at, and then like others have said their is a lot more to geetics than just matching up certain colors

From, what I see the people who play on color are mostly BYBs and use it as a selling point to try to market their dogs.. I find this very sad.

 

There has never been a truer statement!

 

Yes, it is. So often ppl say they don't choose by color, then they turn right around & trash a blue or merle they don't even know based on the color of it's fur.

Sometimes I just shake my head & laugh.

 

I have dogs of all colors. No blue or merle but not because I don't like them I just don't have them. I like the color of the blues. I even like the markings of the merle. I don't have much chance of having either but I wouldn't cull it for color. I have other reasons for culling. Albino I may cull just because of the many problems that come with it. I would just have it fixed and give it to some deserving family as a pet.

 

Their are 2 different ways of chosing a dog for its color:

1. you study & research your bloodlines & individual dogs & then come across a breeding that is a great pairing of 2 proven bulldogs & you have the opportunity to get a pup from the litter. there are 4 reds & 2 chocolates in the litter & you choose a red pup b/c you like red

2. you love the look of the merle "pit bulls" or the white pit bulls & find two parent dogs that are that color or produce that color then breed them (or if someone else owns & has bred them). then you pick out the color pup you want out of the litter.

Do you see the difference? To go looking for a dog based on color or coat pattern is absurd & only fuels the byb trend & puts money in the fashion peddler's pockets. To do it by way of #1 is the right way if you must have a color of choice--you pick out of the colors given to you.

 

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I heard of people doing this simply because they are not excepted in the stadards for registry. I thought blues were, but I know merles are not...

 

Merles are not any longer. For the first 80 or so years of the ADBA's existence they were accepted. In fact, there is even one merle conf. CH & 2 merle weight pull Aces. But merle was made a DQ last year b/c of health issues in a breeder's stock.

But we have already extensively discussed this many times on this board. If you'd like to know more feel free to PM me.

 

i dont choose buy color ... gameness, structure , brains... i have been very fortunate to have awesome looking dogs ,, papa was my favorite but my kids were afraid of him so had to farm him out and not have him in the house .. ask me shoulds farm out the kids! hoping the future bring me just one more to complete my lil family to keep me smiling till im old and tired..the next i thought were total perfection got stolen.. cinder and gemini were what i figured would win lots in competition.. that totally blew my chances at champions as all i have now is the little ones and they are pets only for me ,, maybe try them at agility or that ball thing .. giving them work makes them happy..