Staffy Bull Terrier

I put this here as i wanted to get the opinion of people who really know the history of the apbt and the staffy bull alike. I did not want just the opinion of those that know the Staffy Bull From what i understand the Staffy Bull the apbt, american bulldog and many other dogs have been used in the [ ] over the years. The apbt proving to be the most game percentage wise as far as producing game offspring and just overall w's in the [ ]. This at least what i think i have read.

So i am looking for a little breakdown as it does seem if you go far enough back the staffy bull was used just as much in the [ ] in years past as the Apbt was. But with the development of the apbt this began to change and the Staffy began to take a back seat to the apbt as the apbt was superior regarding game. I am pretty sure i have that last part worng? I also see that in the states the staffy bull is nothing but a show dog and not a working dog at all anymore. I have however done some pokin around and found what are called working staffy bulls and they seem to be what these dogs probably where back in the day and i like them very much? I also hear things said like the Irish Staffy Bull is the purest form of the Staffy Bull, and Ireland is where it originated and where you would get a real one if you desired the real deal and not a show dog. I also feel i have this wrong. Strange though as i hear reference to the Irish Staffy Bull when reading all the time and at the same time i read that the Irish Staffy Bull is nothing more than a apbt as that is what they can get away with calling them in Ireland and the UK?

Also i read that way back the staffy bull and the apbt's where prob mixed in Europe in a lot of cases. Is this true as in i am sure it happened but was there a time when they woulda been seen as very much the same dog or at least dogs that are very much built for the same thing and worth mixing. Also i have read in a few places that often times but no all the time the apbt in Europe tended to be a bit smaller than the dogs in the USA is this to some extent true and if so could it be a result of mixing the Staffy Bull with the apbt over the years?

And lastly the temp of a true working staff if you could find one these days.. anybody have first hand exp with em and how would they compare to say the temp of the apbt that is if you where able to get one form true working stock?

 

there's so much wrong with what you're asking that I've just got to reply in hopes that no-one gets burned this is no place to ask where you can get or find a fighting dog so don't ask and definitely don't reply

 

you def read wrong.. i asked what was the dif long long ago like 50-100-150 years ago! From reading and what i can gather they where both used for fighting in the past many moons ago. My question is not where can you get a fighting or game Staffy Bull Terrier my question is what came first the chicken or the egg... "the Staffy Bull Terrier or the Apbt" or where they both created along side each other? Just looking for a bit of a history lesson and also to find out if like the apbt of today people still breed them as a working dog as apposed to just a show animal like say the American Staf Terrier. My question was not where you can find a Fighting Staff but if people breed staffs for working purposes or if they are nothing more than a show dog.? It is clear the Staff Bull is still being bred but it seems only for show at this point except for maybe in Europe? The show dogs are very thick and from what i have read people have even mixed in other breeds to get em more stocky and shorter... even seeing stuff like cork screw tails. My point is to me that sounds kinda like the ambully and if it is the case i would not be interested in them at all at this point or even wasting my time learning about them. However if they people where breeding them for performance such as weight bull, agility, hunting so forth and so on i would def be interested in learning more about them!

 

I understand what you are saying MR. Brownstone and no there isn't a working staff in the USA and if there is, more than likely no one will tell you because this the internet. To make it easy on you, the dog game of "working" dogs is done. You are years late in that stuff and not worth the trouble of getting into. Secondly if you want a real deal dog, find people with the dog you want. Sounds like the stockier, heavy bone, old style dog probably along the lines of maybe a bigger game dog blood like Mayday, Alligator or possiblely Zebo dogs far as the APBT is concerned. If you are looking for true staffies, I would look towards the Ruffian blood, sounds like the type of dog you are looking for. If I had to deal with someone on Staff blood, trying blood like Ginny York (staffs) or maybe TNT dogs (blue staffs called the APBT) crossed into gameblood. That is seen quite often. You should be going to the ADBA shows and IWPA shows to find that working blood like that or even start talking to hunters who use the staffs like that, more than likely hog hunters because of size. This guy meant no harm but you asking in the wrong way for the information. Spend time on the net researching history, after a few years of that, you will know what you are looking for. BTW, I owned a Ruffian bitch once, really nice dog at that but at the scales of 70lbs, she definitely wasn't a game dog size dog. Good luck on any dog but just make sure to get exactly what you want.

 

I really love (not), the fact that tons of people on here are not able to differentiate between the Ast and the Staffordshire Bull terrier! But still seems to be very opinionated as soon as these topics comes up. The original poster where obviously refering to the Staff.bull...

Mr Brownstone, there is so much wrong with your post so I do not know where to start. To start with- the Irish Staff is not the same thing as the APBT. Perhaps some guys tries to save his dog from the DDA by claiming its an Irish Staff, but does not make any difference. The genuine Irish Staff is not the same as the APBT! Period.

The breed history is also totally different. The Irish stafford was mainly used for badger trials, up until the 1960s when the trials where outlawed in Ireland. When that happened the main focus became dog fighting again, dogs started to be bred for fighting qualities instead of badger trials. In the late 1970´s the dogmen of Ireland understood that they could get an advantage by importing american dogs, since the genepool was much bigger and with more serious players in the Us. Most Irish staffs where then exported to the Uk and Europe to raise the funds needed to import the Us dogs. Most genuine Irish blood lines are therefor found outside Ireland these days.

Then you say that you heard that Staffies and APBT´s where mixed "way back" in Europe! Funny claim, since the first known Pit Bulls where imported to Europe in 1977. Perhaps a few dogs came over during the 2 big wars too, like Sgt Stubby etc. But they where hardly so many dogs that any serious mixing may have occured. And let me remind you that back then dogs where still being shipped to the US from Ireland! So if there where any "mixing" being done it was in the Us.

My best advice to you Brownstone is to buy yourself a bunch of books about the subject!

 

Thank you both... it is really hard when you are just trying to learn and you get attitude like it is some kinda secret society and you are just dumb for not knowing what you dont know. I mean i get it it is kinda like a secret society but it is not like i came right out and asked where to get a spec line of dog. I really was just asking a few basic questions trying to make sense of what i found on the web. You both in the end answered most all of my questions in a very simple straight forward way. From what i read in a few places it just sounded to me like when the Europeans started importing the apbt whenever it was i guess 1977 as you say, i read a few places that they may have cross bred the Staff Bull Terrier and the apbt back then as a lot of the dogs in Europe are bit on the small side. I am not sure if they meant now or then but that is how it sounded to me. I figured i could have read wrong hence why i asked. This stuck out to me as i like a smaller dog very much, i however dont like em so much that i am willing to get a American style show dog Staff Bull Terrier as i think they are just shit even for the show ring tbh. So to be clear i actually like a much smaller shorter dog with very much muscle tone. I was drawn to the Staff Bull Terrier as when i started looking i started to notice some dam handsome dogs and as i read it seemed as though they could be very athletic and poses a temp very much like that of the apbt but that for the purpose they served many many years ago the apbt was a superior dog for the purpose. So no i am not looking for anyone to lead me to a Game or fighting dog as they are illegal and dont exist anymore. I was looking for someone to answer a dew questions regarding what these dogs are really made of, if they still make them, and yes if they can be found in the United States but not where in the United States they can be found. I suppose if i liked what i heard that might have been the next question but probably by PM or something as i have seen you are not gonna get anyone to point in the direction of where to find something unless you already know. I will admit it sucks as it makes it wicked hard and almost seems impossible tbh. Guess i am gonna have to get out to every show i can and show my face and let people get to know me. I guess i am just worried at shows all i will find is show dogs and not working ones?

 

Problem is that you usually need to be trusted and respected to learn things that are being protected for w/e reason. This applies to anything of the sort, not just dogs. Those are usually things you can't just earn from typing over the net.

Most of what u ask is not guarded... you just need to do more research. About 85% of the questions asked on here can be found with a little extra work in research. Look into getting some books... look into pedigrees, im sure if u look back far enough into the peds you will be able to answer your own questions about SBT's and APBT's history together.

 

Basically if you're curious about something... put the footwork in yourself first. Thats how you learn, remember, and come across more info you may want to know at a later date. Its does better than asking questions... now if u research and you cant find shit then ask.

 

ok where can you look back into peds 150-200 years.. i have been doing a fair amount of leg work myself.. sure i was on the wrong track with the wrong dogs for a couple years but i was doing 3-4 hours a day on those dogs and i would say on average i put in a solid 3-4 hours a day on these dogs now picking through threads looking for something that sticks out then going and googling my brains out usually to find very little as very little info is really on the net. i guess unless you are a expert googler maybe then you can find more than me. i am not having a tude it is just very time consuming and most of the time it seems you find very little info on what you are looking for and end up reading about something else altogether.

 

Dunno man, I almost always find what I need. I am by no means an Expert on the subject... but you won't find one question from me on this board only replies because anything I've wanted to know I almost 100% of the time have found it using the search tool, reading books, interviews, talking to other guys who are into the dogs and own em, etc.

As far as peds going back 150 years... I just went back idk how many generations and ended up here. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=68388

imported in 1845... 165 years ago.

 

Yes i gotta get a membership to peds online is that the best or is it the only one? Beyond that i asked about books and two books where suggested. I will purchase and read both but i could not believe how expensive they where and not very easy to find. I did find them but only after asking. I dont know why but i never did think of using the search tool on the forum guess i gotta using that lol! for the most part i use google and then end up back on GD lol!! I am gonna get out to the Tri State show in Sept. I guess i just hope it is not a big waste as it is 6 hrs away. I mean i will be going by myself and not with a dog as that will be a pain in the ass with my girl. I just hope people are engaging and not all lips sealed and no interest in someone they can tell is a newb. Just gonna have to see i suppose.

 

either way, atleast you'll get to see some dogs up close and personal.
chat around, make some friends. probably be a good number of ppl there.

 

Ask your library if they can order any of the bull breed books before you go buying them . I would'nt bother with peds on line as tom,dick and jane can post any old pedigree on there whether it true or fake. If you want some good reading have a look around http://sites.google.com/site/americantimesproject/ .

 

a dog is a dog in mine opinion its just the way the handler deals whit it.

it was just a man/woman that was 1s thinking hey lets give these dogs a name...
and there was regestration on breeds.

still a dog is a dog nomatter what prioretys a owner stands for.

its all big money game