Should the Game-Dog definition of Game/Gamess be updated?

How do you differentiate between "will......" and "desire......."?

What if a dog put 3 hrs in strictly on the desire to survive, is he not game? What would that look like? How would that be measured?

imo a dog shouldent be forced to hunt but should have the desire to.if its to survive he aint game.

 

junebug...it reads like you are getting into definitions ?
what is the definative meaning of gameness?

the best one i ever read was courage x determination = gameness......

 

I agree.

However, the question being asked is "should it be updated" (perhaps making it more specific) so that there is less controversy when using the term on this forum. For example, there are many posts on this forum where many believe the term Game shouldn't be associated with badger/hog dogs.

Or maybe we shouldn't change it and the two sides should just agree to disagree about the definition....

 

too many people worry about the definition.. just work the dogs.. dont think ol timers worried too much about definition.. if more people worked them then those who worried about definitons maybe THIS would improve the breed.. i see peopel say, is the APBT better then what it used to be.. maybe thats the reason. dont like arguing definition anymore.. screw def..just work them and listen to experienced people and u will be fine

 

imo a dog shouldent be forced to hunt but should have the desire to.if its to survive he aint game.

Okay. So what does "desire to...." and " to survive ...." look like? The moment you even attempt to describe the two....... i'll have a counter-example which should negate your description. just adding rigor to the conversation.

 

yes blackpoison......work the dogs...lol
many claim to be working their dogs......but their definition of work may be different from your definition....so their definition of gameness is different from yours....the whole point is the legitamacy of gameness applied to any other dog ....other than a box proven one....

 

i hear ya

 

junebug...it reads like you are getting into definitions ?
what is the definative meaning of gameness?

the best one i ever read was courage x determination = gameness......

1st statement: a bit more than definitions.

2nd statement: definitive? is that even possible (subjective)? If you mean from the dictionary, than we should look it up in the OED. That would be definitive.

3rd statement: i like your definition for no other reason than it BROADENS the definition by including the word "determination". A dog can be determined to do a number of things including: dominate, survive and quit.

 

yes , yes, yes ,junebug....you are taking heads.....it wasnt my definition,just the best one ive read...........remember...it broadens the definition but it is combined with courage .....so their would be no quiting ,...

 

all trade dif-doesnt quit period.:cool:

 

the word gameness was used before dog fighting. so whoever thinks only dog on dog combat proves gameness is wrong. it was used to describe the bulldogs who were used for bull and bearbaiting and these are FACTS. so a hog dog can be game patterdales can be game and there are more than a few dogmen who also believe what i wrote. many think patterdales are extremely game now if you breed a APBT for hog hunting will they be absolutely game no unless thay have been severely injured and kept going. and you will also lose the abilities that make the gladiators

 

i agree gorilla.......my limited understanding is that the name of the game was to find the depth of another dogs gameness before it found the depths of your own...lol...
many hold the opinion that a boar ,or a badger or a chained beast...isnt trying to find the depths of its opponent gameness.....therefore any claims to gameness obtained through these types of work is inferior to work in the box...

 

I agree with some that gameness can only be tested one way,and thats in the [ ] when odds are against him and hes not looking for the exit.But theirs a thin line between leaving a losing dog on the bottom knowing hes about to check out with hopes that the dog on top will quit to try an see how game he is.That is what changes it from a sport to something else.

 

...new england ...i agree, that dog would be picked up and shown his disire to scratch back if possible, the depths of his physical conditioning were the only thing 'proven'.......but many players play the 'gambling game' where the stakes are a little more than the depths of a dogs gameness but the money to be made on an outcome..

 

Junebug - i know it was a broad definition (or lack of definition :p) but that was the point, to allow interpretation.

i do appreciate someone trying to make it a conversation. that's the joy of the internet; for what most say, there's always the opposite side.

but let's not let this go to the depths of the mayfield thread. i'm still trying to comb through that one from page one.

the original question was

by making it a broad definition folks can elaborate how they wish. i find it odd you agree with the first statement of "it should be MUCH simpler than that" but then go onto offer rebuttals for other points. but it makes for a much more spirited debate.

i would say you differentiate "will" from "desire" when your charge continues to scratch into an opponent that is on top or in a different class, knowingly taking it's death. that's an unwavering will ( or "want") to dominate at all costs, including life. i'd say "desire" could be a number of signs or actions, boiling it down to a dumb/simple example of not scratching. your charge isn't engaging in combat when it's its turn to scratch, it desires not to engage in combat = live (assuming the dog knows it's in a losing battle, and game dogs never know they are losing).

i look forward to your response.

 

it makes for a much more spirited debate.

now your catching on. Devils Advocate. Plus the other points were sloppy. just adding rigor......

Something to think about:

What kind of microscope are you using to view the things you are viewing?

How does that affect what you are viewing? Is it calibrated? to what? (is x going to agree with what y OBSERVED and DESCRIBED?)

 

it's thinking about this breed, their heritage, and their purpose in a more rooted/logical/"scientific" kind of view that normally keeps my mouth shut and ears open.

that's a helluva question....as much as it is rhetorical, i wanna get back to you on that one. probably not until the a.m. though.

 

junebug...my nose is bleeding and i feel light headed..lol
i think boze's post is hard to argue against.....he is correct that bulldogs used for baiting were said to be the gamest of all hell..lol
the animals limbs could be sliced off mid action ...without out detriment to there mental perseverance.........how many dogs proven by any method could share that claim to gameness ??

 

Chef- i am not in a position to define what gameness is or isnt (inexperienced). so i asked questions.


i would say you differentiate "will" from "desire" when your charge continues to scratch into an opponent that is on top or in a different class, knowingly taking it's death. that's an unwavering will ( or "want") to dominate at all costs, including life. i'd say "desire" could be a number of signs or actions, boiling it down to a dumb/simple example of not scratching. your charge isn't engaging in combat when it's its turn to scratch, it desires not to engage in combat = live (assuming the dog knows it's in a losing battle, and game dogs never know they are losing).


The above paragraph is a circular one (see previous post). Are you attempting to extract info from a non-verbal, non-primate organism and than make anthropic correlations. We have a hard time with humans that we can verbally communicate with? (see Phrenolgy?).

Here is my example: I know of a bitch that when straighten out, will go. scratch harder than the last....hours under her belt. comes out clean (relatively speaking) everytime. put the hog away and she'll walk right past without a fuss while the hogs scream. break everyone of them. Is she game? she's going against deep ones.....
people who owned her felt she wasn't. they felt that she was in pure survival mode.


game dogs never know they are losing. how do we know this? is it possible to win on survival mode alone? there are a number of reason why a dog could be doing something but the end result LOOKS the same.

dont take it personal, just excercising

 

when animals are injured they run if the injury is bad enough, these dog do not. when animals in the wild are scared they usually run away that is why standing the line is different than jumping the box, well to me it is different they both quit but the one that jumped was truly preserving his life while the other simply did not want anymore