School

Saiyagin · Mar 4, 2017

slim12 said: ↑

It would be very similar in theory to flirt poling a dog. I have often ran mine on the mill prior to a lesson.

The difference being is that a dog being flirted or milled will be stimulated by the interaction with another dog. If he is stimulated by the other dog with a muzzle, and then becomes tired/frustrated a lot can be told.

It is most effective in schooling and checking older dogs, not so much schooling young dogs. The guy that had Tyrone bought a lot of grown dogs. The muzzle meant he could see them three four times in short period of time and then get some matches still before the dog was too old. The muzzle was used to school and check older dogs.

S
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The lure at the end of the flirt pole is the stimulation and when one gets fatigued and frustrated from not catching the lure at then end of the pole the same can be told.

You still havent answered my question on how is it more effective in schooling and checking older dogs as opposed to younger prospects???....A lot of dog men buy grown dogs and still school and check there own dogs without using a muzzle....My question is BESIDES the obvious of less injury/damage and short period of recovery time while using a muzzle what makes it so effective as opposed to schooling/checking one without a muzzle?

slim12 · Mar 5, 2017

Saiyagin said: ↑

The lure at the end of the flirt pole is the stimulation and when one gets fatigued and frustrated from not catching the lure at then end of the pole the same can be told.

You still havent answered my question on how is it more effective in schooling and checking older dogs as opposed to younger prospects???....A lot of dog men buy grown dogs and still school and check there own dogs without using a muzzle....My question is BESIDES the obvious of less injury/damage and short period of recovery time while using a muzzle what makes it so effective as opposed to schooling/checking one without a muzzle?
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I did not say it was more effective, I said it was very effective.

It is a personal preference. If I say the carpet mill is more effective the slat mill guys come out of the wood work. If I say Red Boy the Eli fans swarm

In these dogs it has been and always about what wins. 2 + 2 = 4, but at the same time 3 + 1 = 4, and at the very same time 5 - 1 = 4. The end result is the same but there are multiple ways to get there. Dogs no different.

The guy that wins is right, until he loses and then some other guy is more right and so on and so on.

S

Saiyagin · Mar 5, 2017

slim12 said: ↑

I did not say it was more effective, I said it was very effective.

It is a personal preference. If I say the carpet mill is more effective the slat mill guys come out of the wood work. If I say Red Boy the Eli fans swarm

In these dogs it has been and always about what wins. 2 + 2 = 4, but at the same time 3 + 1 = 4, and at the very same time 5 - 1 = 4. The end result is the same but there are multiple ways to get there. Dogs no different.

The guy that wins is right, until he loses and then some other guy is more right and so on and so on.

S
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The STANDARD schooling method that MAJORITY of dogmen utilize is schooling one WITHOUT a muzzle. By one saying its "VERY EFFECTIVE", one must compare it with the standard to prove its EFFECTIVENESS....and like I asked before besides the obvious of less injuries/damage/recovery time what makes using a muzzle "VERY EFFECTIVE", when compared to one not using a muzzle?

Although it is a personal preference that is not my point especially with your conditioning analogy since it has so many VARIABLES, methods and ways of getting one into shape, BUT with schooling there is a STANDARD PRACTICE of one schooling ones dogs WITHOUT a MUZZLE.

Although there are multiple ways to get there, in these dogs its not always about what wins as the end results are not always the same.

One person or even a few that wins does not make them right as there are WAY MORE dog men winning without using a muzzle for schooling....Majority of all the dog men through out history have schooled there dogs WITHOUT using a muzzle because its the most effective method, making it the STANDARD PRACTICE.

It seems your new world order way of thinking is that a few that win are right and the MAJORITY that win is wrong. LMAO

slim12 · Mar 5, 2017

It has nothing to do with majority or who does what or how one thinks new vs. old. It has everything to do with a practice being effective, regardless of whether it is approved or proved by the masses. It simply works.

It is whoever wins is more right than the next guy on that particular night. And that will always change at some point, unless that particular person retires undefeated. The guy that was more right may have had a unheard of method of working a dog, he may have an odd ball approach to breeding dogs and he may have a method of schooling that falls into the minority but until someone shows him otherwise, he is right.

There is no 100% right way that is 100% all of the time. If it were we would all have the same dogs, doing the same things and ending up a draw on Saturday night.

I only post on what I have seen personally. I will then comment on whether it worked or did not work based on what I have seen. When looking at dogs with a muzzle it is a very effective method to school a dog multiple times over a short period of time. The damage is limited and the recovery is quick. The time frame between rolls can be greatly reduced.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=41369

He was sold as a grown dog. He had zero to no mouth. He could breathe underwater. That group bought him as a 3 1/2 year old. They rolled him with a muzzle for 35-40 minutes and without a muzzle for ten minutes. Four times in a short period of time. He was a 2XW winner in less than a year.

That group rode up and down the road with the best of them. Much respect to the way they handle business. It may not be the opinion of the masses but they handle business.

S

Saiyagin · Mar 5, 2017

slim12 said: ↑

It has nothing to do with majority or who does what or how one thinks new vs. old. It has everything to do with a practice being effective, regardless of whether it is approved or proved by the masses. It simply works.

It is whoever wins is more right than the next guy on that particular night. And that will always change at some point, unless that particular person retires undefeated. The guy that was more right may have had a unheard of method of working a dog, he may have an odd ball approach to breeding dogs and he may have a method of schooling that falls into the minority but until someone shows him otherwise, he is right.

There is no 100% right way that is 100% all of the time. If it were we would all have the same dogs, doing the same things and ending up a draw on Saturday night.

I only post on what I have seen personally. I will then comment on whether it worked or did not work based on what I have seen. When looking at dogs with a muzzle it is a very effective method to school a dog multiple times over a short period of time. The damage is limited and the recovery is quick. The time frame between rolls can be greatly reduced.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=41369

He was sold as a grown dog. He had zero to no mouth. He could breathe underwater. That group bought him as a 3 1/2 year old. They rolled him with a muzzle for 35-40 minutes and without a muzzle for ten minutes. Four times in a short period of time. He was a 2XW winner in less than a year.

That group rode up and down the road with the best of them. Much respect to the way they handle business. It may not be the opinion of the masses but they handle business.

S
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Again you are missing my point and or making up excuses....If this method was so effective and simply works why aint majority of all the dog men now and in the past not utilizing this method???

LMAO@whoever wins is more right on that night. LOL Just because someone wins does not mean he is right that is so absurd. LOL...If I wear speedos and someone else wears shorts and I win the fight does that mean wearing speedos is right? LMAO

I never said its 100% right but when 97% or more of dogmen are not using muzzles to school there dogs there is a good reason to it hence the standard. But even if it was 100% right not everyone would have the same dogs or do exactly the same things nor end up in a draw, it seems like you are trying to distract from my main point. LOL

I dont care what you seen or thought it worked, my question once again is how is schooling one with a muzzle on more effective then schooling one without, besides the obvious of less damage and recovery time???....Its like you keep on AVOIDING MY QUESTION with your heroic stories of a 2XW in less then a year or a group that rode with the best of them. LOL

slim12 · Mar 5, 2017

Re -read my post. Slow down on the parts 'very effective'. Stop right there. The read it again. 'very effective'.

Not once did I say it was more effective. Not once did I say it was the most popular. I simply said it was very effective.

it is very effective because there is limited damage. It is very effective because there is quick recovery. It is very effective because of those two things there can be more schooling sessions over a shorter period of time.

The pedigree was not a heroic story but an example of this method being effectively used. A personal experience if you will.

Each time I post it will be based on real life experience. Nothing heroic. Just real.

But I do enjoy your internet banter. Sort of like it takes all kinds. People that go and do and then people who guess and type.

S

Saiyagin · Mar 6, 2017

slim12 said: ↑

Re -read my post. Slow down on the parts 'very effective'. Stop right there. The read it again. 'very effective'.

Not once did I say it was more effective. Not once did I say it was the most popular. I simply said it was very effective.

it is very effective because there is limited damage. It is very effective because there is quick recovery. It is very effective because of those two things there can be more schooling sessions over a shorter period of time.

The pedigree was not a heroic story but an example of this method being effectively used. A personal experience if you will.

Each time I post it will be based on real life experience. Nothing heroic. Just real.

But I do enjoy your internet banter. Sort of like it takes all kinds. People that go and do and then people who guess and type.

S
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I've been taking it slow as I asked you a question many, many time in which you still did not answer. LOL We are talking about schooling.....you are talking about using a muzzle being very effective as opposed to what? There has to be something to compare the effectiveness of it to judge how really effective it actually is....Like I said before besides less injuries/damage and recovery times (which is basically a given when one cant actually bite anything LOL which can also be duplicated just by tiring out a dog with a flirt pole LOL) how is it very effective as opposed to schooling one without a muzzle?

It was a story used to justify and glorify with heroics of why you believe it to be "VERY EFFECTIVE", but you did not as usual answer my question. LOL

So I guess you are implying only your posts are based off of real life experiences huh??? LMAO...heroics is when someone needs to brag about there or others accomplishments over the internet for all eyes to see which is a form of HEROICS or BRAGGING RIGHTS to try and justify why you believe its very effective. Like well his dog is a 4XW so sucking on his nut sack every time before a match must mean its REALLY EFFECTIVE. LMAOROTF ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahhahahahaahahahhahahahaaa

I do enjoy your internet banter hence why I am the only one replying to you. LOL Yes it takes all kinds even the ones who like to use muzzles for schooling claiming its very effective....There are some people who do the dew and some who do doo doo. LMAOROTF

slim12 · Mar 6, 2017

I will do the comparison.

Most dogs hang it up due to fatigue and frustration.

1. Without the muzzle there is less damage than with the muzzle there is more opportunity to school over a shorter period of time..
2. There is quicker recovery from less damage thus more opportunity to school over a shorter period of time.
3. it is very similar to using a flirt pole or a mill and then rolling to see fatigue prior to a lot of damage being done. A tired dog will not need to go as long as a fresh dog to get to the point where fatigue makes him change his mind.
4. A dog coming off a flirt pole or a mill will grab another gear when he sees another dog. Muzzled off-sets this.
5. Any time one can mimic the show in preparing for the show it is a plus, maybe even 'very effective' would fit.

When I use an example is not nut riding nor is it a grab at heroics, it is simply what I base my comments on....personal experience.

I am not really sure how many times I have to answer a question in order for the question to be answered.

S

Saiyagin · Mar 6, 2017

slim12 said: ↑

I will do the comparison.

Most dogs hang it up due to fatigue and frustration.

1. Without the muzzle there is less damage than with the muzzle there is more opportunity to school over a shorter period of time..
2. There is quicker recovery from less damage thus more opportunity to school over a shorter period of time.
3. it is very similar to using a flirt pole or a mill and then rolling to see fatigue prior to a lot of damage being done. A tired dog will not need to go as long as a fresh dog to get to the point where fatigue makes him change his mind.
4. A dog coming off a flirt pole or a mill will grab another gear when he sees another dog. Muzzled off-sets this.
5. Any time one can mimic the show in preparing for the show it is a plus, maybe even 'very effective' would fit.

When I use an example is not nut riding nor is it a grab at heroics, it is simply what I base my comments on....personal experience.

I am not really sure how many times I have to answer a question in order for the question to be answered.

S
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Dogs quitting from fatigue and frustration is a game test , not schooling...unless you dont know the difference??? LOL...hence the reason why this practice is not used on YOUNG PROSPECTS. LMAO

1.You must be flustered or frustrated as you seemed to have said it the opposite way and I quote>Without the muzzle there is less damage than with the muzzle there is more opportunity to school over a shorter period of time.....So without a muzzle there is less damage? LOL

2.Once again I said BESIDES THE OBVIOUS of lesser damage and recovery time while using the muzzle.

3. Once again we already established that one can use any type of method to make one tired before letting one engage so using any other method compared to the muzzle is just as effective.

4. So a dog coming off another type of work out will grab another gear instead of a dog? LOL and the only way to off set it is by using a muzzle??? LMAO

5. Right here is my main point slim......A dog mimicking a actual show would be to school one WITHOUT a muzzle unless you use muzzles in a show??? LMAOROTF .....So when mimicking a show which one mimics a show the most accurately, using a muzzle or NOT using a muzzle??? So which one is VERY EFFECTIVE??? and which one is not so effective??? LMAO

I never said it was nut riding, I said it was heroics to try and glorify ones or others accomplisments to give more credibility to your or there beliefs/methods.

You still have not answered my question as you seem to be avoiding it by making up excuses as this is my question that I have been repeating so many times>>>> Besides the obvious of less damage/injury and recovery time how is using a muzzle very effective as opposed to not using one?.............I will give you the answer>>>>>ITS NOT. LMAOROTF

slim12 · Mar 7, 2017

Dogs quitting from fatigue and frustration is a game test , not schooling...unless you dont know the difference??? LOL...hence the reason why this practice is not used on YOUNG PROSPECTS. LMAO

1.You must be flustered or frustrated as you seemed to have said it the opposite way and I quote>Without the muzzle there is less damage than with the muzzle there is more opportunity to school over a shorter period of time.....So without a muzzle there is less damage? LOL

A. Apologize for the grammatical error. between muzzle and there should be the word 'and' or a period and start a new sentence. Point remains the same.

2.Once again I said BESIDES THE OBVIOUS of lesser damage and recovery time while using the muzzle.

B. Besides the obvious, well the obvious is and has been the answer since the original post. Less damage and faster recover more schooling over a shorter period of time.

3. Once again we already established that one can use any type of method to make one tired before letting one engage so using any other method compared to the muzzle is just as effective.

C. Agreed using any other method id just as effective. So the opposite is true as well. The muzzle is effective as well, very effective.

4. So a dog coming off another type of work out will grab another gear instead of a dog? LOL and the only way to off set it is by using a muzzle??? LMAO

D. I will go slow. A dog will go at a different pace and go harder on another dog than he will on a flirt pole as a flirt pole will not fight back.

5. Right here is my main point slim......A dog mimicking a actual show would be to school one WITHOUT a muzzle unless you use muzzles in a show??? LMAOROTF .....So when mimicking a show which one mimics a show the most accurately, using a muzzle or NOT using a muzzle??? So which one is VERY EFFECTIVE??? and which one is not so effective??? LMAO

E. Again, mimicking a show is not duplicating a show. If you work a dog hard and he has to breathe, that work mimics the work in a show but it does not duplicate the show as there is no dog pulling on its ear.

I never said it was nut riding, I said it was heroics to try and glorify ones or others accomplisments to give more credibility to your or there beliefs/methods.

F. To quote Dizzy Dean, "If you did it, it ain't bragging". The posted dog was an example to its effectiveness. The dog was purchased later in life, rolled four times and won twice within a year. The first match went two hours. Four rolls and two matches in 12 months is a stretch. The lack of damage and the quicker recovery allowed this to happen. Effective.

You still have not answered my question as you seem to be avoiding it by making up excuses as this is my question that I have been repeating so many times>>>> Besides the obvious of less damage/injury and recovery time how is using a muzzle very effective as opposed to not using one?.............I will give you the answer>>>>>ITS NOT. LMAOROTF

I answered the question time and time again. You have answered it as well. It provides more time in the box over a shorter period of time. Fatigue and frustration. Flirting and milling will provide similar fatigue. Neither will provide frustration like a muzzle.

I have answered the very best I can. I have re-read each post to ensure I am answering the question.

I can't see how I can explain/answer any better or any more clear.

S

Saiyagin · Mar 8, 2017

slim12 said: ↑

Dogs quitting from fatigue and frustration is a game test , not schooling...unless you dont know the difference??? LOL...hence the reason why this practice is not used on YOUNG PROSPECTS. LMAO

1.You must be flustered or frustrated as you seemed to have said it the opposite way and I quote>Without the muzzle there is less damage than with the muzzle there is more opportunity to school over a shorter period of time.....So without a muzzle there is less damage? LOL

A. Apologize for the grammatical error. between muzzle and there should be the word 'and' or a period and start a new sentence. Point remains the same.

2.Once again I said BESIDES THE OBVIOUS of lesser damage and recovery time while using the muzzle.

B. Besides the obvious, well the obvious is and has been the answer since the original post. Less damage and faster recover more schooling over a shorter period of time.

3. Once again we already established that one can use any type of method to make one tired before letting one engage so using any other method compared to the muzzle is just as effective.

C. Agreed using any other method id just as effective. So the opposite is true as well. The muzzle is effective as well, very effective.

4. So a dog coming off another type of work out will grab another gear instead of a dog? LOL and the only way to off set it is by using a muzzle??? LMAO

D. I will go slow. A dog will go at a different pace and go harder on another dog than he will on a flirt pole as a flirt pole will not fight back.

5. Right here is my main point slim......A dog mimicking a actual show would be to school one WITHOUT a muzzle unless you use muzzles in a show??? LMAOROTF .....So when mimicking a show which one mimics a show the most accurately, using a muzzle or NOT using a muzzle??? So which one is VERY EFFECTIVE??? and which one is not so effective??? LMAO

E. Again, mimicking a show is not duplicating a show. If you work a dog hard and he has to breathe, that work mimics the work in a show but it does not duplicate the show as there is no dog pulling on its ear.

I never said it was nut riding, I said it was heroics to try and glorify ones or others accomplisments to give more credibility to your or there beliefs/methods.

F. To quote Dizzy Dean, "If you did it, it ain't bragging". The posted dog was an example to its effectiveness. The dog was purchased later in life, rolled four times and won twice within a year. The first match went two hours. Four rolls and two matches in 12 months is a stretch. The lack of damage and the quicker recovery allowed this to happen. Effective.

You still have not answered my question as you seem to be avoiding it by making up excuses as this is my question that I have been repeating so many times>>>> Besides the obvious of less damage/injury and recovery time how is using a muzzle very effective as opposed to not using one?.............I will give you the answer>>>>>ITS NOT. LMAOROTF

I answered the question time and time again. You have answered it as well. It provides more time in the box over a shorter period of time. Fatigue and frustration. Flirting and milling will provide similar fatigue. Neither will provide frustration like a muzzle.

I have answered the very best I can. I have re-read each post to ensure I am answering the question.

I can't see how I can explain/answer any better or any more clear.

S
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Even with the word AND between it still does not make sense. QUOTE>Without the muzzle there is less damage. LOL

No, that is your answer to your own question, BUT NOT THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION. Comprende??? LOL

So the muzzle is very effective as opposed to what???? So the flirt pole is very effective as well.

So because a flirt pole does not fight back a dog will go at a slower pace because the flirt pole does not fight back is your reasoning why a muzzle is more effective???? LMAO....or that a flirt pole wont frustrate one as much as a muzzle??? SMDH....There are a lot of dogs that go just as hard on a flirt pole as they would another dog/animal and get frustrated as well when they cant catch the lure.

LMAO@mimicking a show is not duplicating a show????? DO YOU REALIZE HOW IGNORANT THAT SOUNDS SLIM???? SMDH, LOL......So now according to your logic or excuse using a muzzle is not for schooling a dog but FOR CONDITIONING a dog????

So quoting Dizzy dean makes it more legit???? HOLY SHIT!!! LMAO.....So what is the definition of bragging and how is it used???....Posting a dogs pedigree and giving his accomplishments does not prove its effectiveness. LOL.....So the lack of damage and quick recovery allowed him to win 2 shows, since you are using his 2XW credentials...Now if he dog had LOST you wouldnt be bragging on it or claiming it to be effective right???? LMAO

Once again you have NOT answered MY QUESTION as you seem to be avoiding it.....You only answered YOUR OWN question....I cant see how I can make it any more CLEARER. LMAO

MY QUESTION>>>> Besides the obvious of less damage/injury/recovery time from using a muzzle how is it very effective as opposed to schooling one without a muzzle???

slim12 · Mar 8, 2017

Again, and again, and again.

The answer is just as you typed it. When using a muzzle there is less damage. When using a muzzle there is a quicker recovery. When not using a muzzle there is more damage and the dog needs more time to recover. When using a muzzle a dog can be rolled more times over a shorter period of time.

More schooling sessions over the same amount of time is better than less schooling sessions over the same amount of time.

With more schooling sessions over the same amount of time a dog can be exposed to more of the different styles he may see down the road.

Thus the phrase, very effective. Not more effective. Not 9 out of 10 dog men recommend.. just very effective.

S

Saiyagin · Mar 8, 2017

slim12 said: ↑

Again, and again, and again.

The answer is just as you typed it. When using a muzzle there is less damage. When using a muzzle there is a quicker recovery. When not using a muzzle there is more damage and the dog needs more time to recover. When using a muzzle a dog can be rolled more times over a shorter period of time.

More schooling sessions over the same amount of time is better than less schooling sessions over the same amount of time.

With more schooling sessions over the same amount of time a dog can be exposed to more of the different styles he may see down the road.

Thus the phrase, very effective. Not more effective. Not 9 out of 10 dog men recommend.. just very effective.

S
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Yet again and again and again you did not answer my question.

We already established less damage,quicker recovery time and more schooling rolls.....But my question was besides those things how effective is it oppose to not using a muzzle???

More schooling sessions is not necessarly better then less schooling sessions especially those using muzzles. LOL

How can one be exposed to more styles if one has a muzzle on, as a head dog wont be able to hold out another dog with a muzzle on???. SMDH LOL

The phrase very effective usually means above 80%.....but above 80% compared to what?.......Why not all dogmen recommend this method if its "VERY EFFECTIVE"?

wicked13 · Mar 9, 2017

I'm bored so I'll chime in I would say wrestling should work muscles most won't work with just running and tugging on a rope other then that dunno

oakgrove · Mar 9, 2017

Foot work and leverage I'd imagine too... from a novice pov...

DISCOIII · Mar 9, 2017

wicked13 said: ↑

I'm bored so I'll chime in I would say wrestling should work muscles most won't work with just running and tugging on a rope other then that dunno
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I'm with you put a big dog on a little dog and your big dog will get quicker trying to keep up with the smaller dog speed kills

wicked13 · Mar 9, 2017

Na I'd compare it more to say u went running one day then the next day you go out and bang one out on big Ronda you'd notice different muscles hurting from the wrestling vs just running thus I would assume more overall workout .mentally though I dunno if there is any benefit I would probably argue no since big Ronda might shock ya if she never bit before then ya would've sitting there like what's this bitch doing. See what I mean

c_note · Mar 9, 2017

wicked13 said: ↑

Na I'd compare it more to say u went running one day then the next day you go out and bang one out on big Ronda you'd notice different muscles hurting from the wrestling vs just running thus I would assume more overall workout .mentally though I dunno if there is any benefit I would probably argue no since big Ronda might shock ya if she never bit before then ya would've sitting there like what's this bitch doing. See what I mean
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Big Ronda bites?!?!?! Does she have any sisters you can introduce me to?? I love me a freaky big girl lol

wicked13 · Mar 9, 2017

Dunno never wanna be on the biting end of a big Ronda lol but if one wants to wrestle big ronda's gota make sure getting bit ain't no surprise I would assume

slim12 · Mar 9, 2017

The same reason all dog men do not recommend carpet mills. The same reason all dog men do not prefer Eli dogs.

The head dog has the ability to take hold once the muzzle comes off. Scroll back up. 30 plus minutes with the muzzle and 10-15 without.

I'm not sure how to make it any more clear or answer the question more effectively, wait not effectively, answer the question any better.

Effectively is either a hard word to understand or maybe an even harder word to explain.

S

Saiyagin said: ↑

Yet again and again and again you did not answer my question.

We already established less damage,quicker recovery time and more schooling rolls.....But my question was besides those things how effective is it oppose to not using a muzzle???

More schooling sessions is not necessarly better then less schooling sessions especially those using muzzles. LOL

How can one be exposed to more styles if one has a muzzle on, as a head dog wont be able to hold out another dog with a muzzle on???. SMDH LOL

The phrase very effective usually means above 80%.....but above 80% compared to what?.......Why not all dogmen recommend this method if its "VERY EFFECTIVE"?
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