proper staffs

i would agree that the tosa is a japanese breed,despite it having a lot of mastiff and bull terrier blood in it,its been bred by the japs for their purpose for a long time now.

did the british breed the mastiffs that became bulldog's?
no,but they but they bred them mastiffs for our purposes and they became a new breed.

as for the apbt being an american breed,well they took a british breed and bred for the same purpose they were already bred for just with far less restrictions.
that ones more debatable.

 

>>then perhaps the "American" bulldogs and the "American" pitbull terriers shouldn't be considered American either then huh? :rolleyes:<< absolutely,couldnt agree more with this. >>> Similarly in the development of the bull terrier type dogs utilized for combat, their ancestors were first used as vermin killers, then hunters, and then progressed on towards baiting contests and then finally the sport of dogmatching.<<<< absolutely ,agree wit ya 100% on this too . Now,lets take a wee look at what you say about the tosa >> Their very purpose of existence is for combat<< ????? what,dogfight combat,in a hunt combat or guarding type combat,or against men combat ????your comment is wide open mate,your typing without saying anything solid.And as for your use of the word "distinct", wow,it just dont fit. Anyway,you only need to look at them to be able to tell that dogfighting is not their original reason for existance,too big headed for a start,and as for stamina,get a pit and a tosa,take them both on a 15mile bike run,then you,ll see what stamina is when the tosa,s lying fucked an the pits still raring to go.Then you wrote this - According to someone I've spoken to on a Tosa board- ummm ok :rolleyes: cant argue wit that. As i said,your all over the place ,come out and say something solid,something like,- what did the americans introduce into the pitbull that transformed it into an american pitbull,this should be a easy one for you seeing as you can go back a thousandf years to inform us how/why the tosa was made.Your posting drivel mate,are you here just to start bother ?? rsvp

 

Bull Mastiffs are not an ancient breed, English Mastiffs were crossed with the old Bulldogs in order to stop poachers.

 

the japs may have bred them but they used european/british dogs to make them or were bull terriers there before colonisation. you just contradicted yourself with that reply mate n if it only takes for one dog to make the other make a noise to win a contest dont think that is a test of gameness at all if it is id say 99% of the earth terriers and dogs that are only used on hogs are more game

 

just because British dogs where used in its creation does not make it a British breed.
the mastiffs which became bulldogs did not originate in the uk did they?
but the bulldog was still an English breed.

if you take a breed outcross it with something else and then breed it for an entirely different purpose it becomes a new breed,thats why like i said, that the apbt is actually an american breed is debatable,that a tosa is a japanese breed isnt.

 

Mastiff type and Molossian dogs from the Molossi tribes were traded by the phonecian traders, breeds were developed from these dogs .Early records from roman paintings,statues etc depict these mastiff like dogs used as war dogs and spanish mastiff dogs. Phonecians did'nt just bring with them large mastiff type guardians but other dogs from small types to hunting dogs of various shapes and sizes, which today we know as hounds. These dogs along with the few indigenous dogs were the ancesters of a lot of todays modern breeds. Types of dog down the years were created for purpose(( BRED BEST TO BEST FOR THE PURPOSE OF WORKING)) not looks or fancy paperwork. Its only in the 1800's do we start to see various types of dogs become known as seperate breeds and breed clubs set up, the first ever dog show was in 1858 or 1859 twenty years later the kennel club was formed.It would be another sixty years before the first stafford (( named after the area these types of dog came from)) and its standard was set. Another seventy years down the line and the majority of K.C. sbt's are bug eyed, belly dragging hard breathing mutants.

There are still a few decent, genuine and dedicated folks out there that breed the right type of stb.

 

i never said they were a british breed (tosas) i said they were created USING SOME british dogs now that makes them a japanese breed as they created them now the pbt was a british breed but the standard that was classed as a stafford was classed on the dogs where im from staffordshire was just a slightly different looking pbt but even then different villages had different standards or looks and size to them as the best dogs were bred that meant there was a huge difference in type from different geographical areas as they werent after a look they was after a dog for purpose until it became popular to show dogs then it started to slowly go down hill till the last 30/40 years we get to the shit we got today

 

although the tosa did not perform as other fighting breeds, it was indeed bred for that purpose. did they serve other tasks? yes, but they were bred as a fighting breed, but they ended up protecting property and some other stuff.
there are some other molossoid breeds created for fighting as well i.e alano español, perro de presa canario, nevertheless fighting dogs and damn good cattle dogs, wild pig hunting dogs cant and will never compare to the much smaller bull and terrier breeds.




by the way how did we go from proper staffords to talking about molossoid breeds

bantam oscar a proper stafford in my opinion

 

LOL have you done any research at all? Join a few Tosa boards or get in contact with some real Tosa breeders and they'll tell you that the Tosa Inu's purpose is to fight. You realize that many of these "big headed" dogs are not working/traditional Tosas right? Also like I said, or perhaps it should be better said that many notable Traditional Tosa and the Tosa's history states, they were bred to exemplify the silent combatative spirit of the samurai with the strength of the sumo wrestler. Here is a working Tosa. While I doubt that he'd be as nimble or as agile as the bull and terrier dogs simply because he is much larger, I'd doubt he'd collapse from a 15 mile bike ride. Now as for Tosas not being utilized as combat dogs in the sport of dog matching, all you need to do is study their history and do a little reading. These dogs were bred for the sport and like many other dogs, they've also found use too as a guard and hunting dog. The German Shepherd is a breed used in police and protection work. However, their original purpose were to be shepherds tending towards their flock. Does this mean that the German Shepherd isn't a shepherd dog?

 

How did I contradict myself? The Tosa is a distinct Japanese breed, please explain how I contradicted myself? The Tosa breed came to be on Japanese territory by Japanese dogmen seeking to breed a dog that is physically more imposing and powerful than these foreign breeds that their previous champion, the Akita, could not beat. They were also bred to exemplify the samurai spirit with the power of the sumo wrestler. Just because you've utilized other breeds into the makeup doesn't mean the dog isn't distinctly japanese. Also who spoke of gameness with the Tosa? The Tosa is just a breed utilized for the combatative sport of dog matching. Also just so you know, there have been bulldogs that have lost to the Tosa (as well as the Kangal, CAO, etc.) that doesn't utilize the rule of silence. It doesn't mean that the Tosa or the other breeds are game though, it just means that those breeds have won against a bulldog

 

agreed, I've only seen pics, but Bantam Oscar was a nice looking dog. only 26lbs, sounds nice, eh?

 

dunno his exact dob but assume i might have been real young when was earning his keep. there's couple of pics of him on here

 

Join a few Tosa boards or get in contact with some real Tosa breeders and they'll tell you that the Tosa Inu's purpose is to fight. Whattya mean,just like on these boards,some "real" dogmen will tell you the pitbull was nothing til it was "americanized,you know what i mean. DREAMERS.And you fall for their drivel,ie this - They were also bred to exemplify the samurai spirit with the power of the sumo wrestler. Just because you've utilized other breeds into the makeup doesn't mean the dog isn't distinctly japanese. Also who spoke of gameness with the Tosa? The Tosa is just a breed utilized for the combatative sport of dog matching. C,mon ndm,your living in fantasyland bud,do you live in a castle by any chance ??? And as for the bike ride-oft..

 

tamthebam,is pityme the dog in vc hollenders book?.......if so it should be clear whythe dog was revered in the 20s....the american pitbull terrier was at the peak of its popularity across the atlantic and in britian only the english bull terrier was recognised, outcrossing to create the coloured variety left the ORIGINAL pit strains in the hands of an ever decreasing circle .
both the large baiting dogs and the small baiting dogs were a rarity , and so where the people who kept them.......im not sure why you are comparing a dog weighing 19lbs to dogs dogs four times heavier (78lbs) or how this implies other breeds being added. dogs bred for the pit weighing 70lbs are on record as participating in organised dog fights in the westminster pit, and large strains were still bred down south into the latter part of the 1800s,the same time frame that dogs where finding their way onto american soil.......as for the large dogs of blue paul legend, these were still found on british soil up to the end of the 1800s........... an article dated 1973 by mary pringle in dogworld about joe mallen states his first bitch was a great granddaughter of a dog called Blue Jack. This dog was owned by Walter Slim, the uncle of a family friend, and he came from Smethwick. The bitch was a fawn coloured, cut eared (cropped) Stafford, a very old frame with a notice about Blue Jack was displayed at his home, stating that this dog is "Open to fight anything in the world from 50 to 500 lbs" at Smethwick, 1893.
i do not think 19lb dogs like pityme are representative of english pit dog types any more than dogs you have made reference to of 78lbs in america representing the pit bull terrier....or imply the infusion of blood not already here.......but until some one builds a time machine we will never truly know...................as for what is a proper stafford, is it in the name or what the name represents? if its in the name then the stafford is a kc dog bred for show of past baiting heritage, based on the 48 standard change.....if it is in what the name represents, then the stafford should be the embodiment of the pit dog ..the original standard of 35 gives an idealised reference to what in the opinion of the staffordshire old timers was a BALANCED proportionate blend of both bulldog and terrier representing successful pit dogs of the past, the upper limit of the original standard (18inch 38lb hard conditioned weight) when compared to some of the most devastating pit dogs of recent american history is hard to argue against...but as the saying goes beauty is as beauty does.

 

The dogs prob did get crossed with other breeds EBT went to the us and did well in the pits and back in the day people bred best to best.But the original dogs still came from england.

 

and ireland jack the lad lol

 

Tiger, yes it's the dog in VC Hollender's book and you are right about the time machine! Anyway thanks for the reply and sharing your knowledge.

 

>>>as for what is a proper stafford, is it in the name or what the name represents? if its in the name then the stafford is a kc dog bred for show of past baiting heritage, based on the 48 standard change.....if it is in what the name represents, then the stafford should be the embodiment of the pit dog ..the original standard of 35 gives an idealised reference to what in the opinion of the staffordshire old timers was a BALANCED proportionate blend of both bulldog and terrier representing successful pit dogs of the past, the upper limit of the original standard (18inch 38lb hard conditioned weight) when compared to some of the most devastating pit dogs of recent american history is hard to argue against...but as the saying goes beauty is as beauty does. <<<<<< excellent mate,who could argue against what you wrote,certainly not me anyway.Should be cast in stone as breed standard.

 

That actually isn't drivel. Like I said, get in contact with some real Tosa breeders or just study the history of the breed. You'll find that the Tosas original purpose as well as the standard of the breed. Btw, the rules for Tosa combat is also different, it isn't Cajun rules. It is a distinct rule called Sumo and the reason why a dog is disqualified for screaming is because screaming either denotes pain, fear, nervousness, anxiety, frustration, etc. The samurai spirit and code mandates that a samurai remain silent and composed during a duel, which is why Tosas that scream in the fight are considered poor quality animals. A Tosa that also bares teeth, raises hackles, etc. are also considered to be a poor animal as a Samurai doesn't bluff. If you think this is Drivel then you need to brush up on your knowledge of the Tosa. Furthermore, I doubt any "real" dogmen would tell you that the pitbull was nothing before being "americanized." The reason for this is because the term pitbull is used to denote the American Pitbull Terrier, not the staffordshire bull terrier. Also there have been notable staffies that have bested apbts and vice versa. I respect both dogs and think of both very highly.

 

I doubt any "real" dogmen would tell you that the pitbull was nothing before being "americanized." The reason for this is because the term pitbull is used to denote the American Pitbull Terrier, not the staffordshire bull terrier. :confused::confused::confused::confused: oh dear!! im outta this conversation bud,good luck