Photos folks might not have seen

Mr.Danny Burton & Mr.Coy with Ch Bobby Joe

 

Captain Ben and Ch Whitehead.
Long read but some old accounts :
": In the early 80s, we had many decent dogmen in North America. I was friendly with most of the good dogmen, and I was especially close to the ones from Pa.One day I was in Red's house and he showed me black dog and asked what I thought him. I told him in my opinion that the dog could not win anything, and hence..This Black dog was called Chainsaw.
Red.B is a much better man than me and he said he was going to match the dog into STP. Many people including Red had a good relation with STP, and I always thought STP had an eye for the dogs.I thought that STP avoided any tough competition, because in those days Hardcore used to challenge STP regularly and again I thought STP was not willing to scratch. Just my opinion, however I knew STP had a good eye for the dogs, so in a roll or a match, if he sees a good dog, he will buy the dog, find some beginners to match this dog 200$ and then make him a champion, Gr.Champion etc.etc and SELL for big money to Europeans, Asians, Russians etc.etc.Nothing wrong. A good businessman.
As usual STP will not leave his kitchen so Red had to go all the way to STP.Willy here should be able to correct any of my details because I am sure he remembers more than me.
Red wins the match, where Chainsaw's both the legs were broken and still he scratched on 2 stumps and won the fight. To be frank, till THIS date I HAVE NEVER SEEN such a thing with my own eyes.I see in European and Russian reports regularly dogs breaking both legs,shoulders, jaw etc.etc and after 2 months the same dogs fighting again!!!!!. I have no comments on that because it is Russia and Europe where every dog looses dead game.!!
Anyway Chainsaw wins this match and is retired for good. Now you guys can see how little I know about these matters when I said that Chainsaw should be put down.
Chainsaw's father was a dog called Mojo, who was very hard biting dog but would not scratch- in my view-a rough CUR. Yes A CUR. Red.B. offered me Chainsaw to breed, and for once I broke my guiding principle, and bred one of my good bitches and I got a few pups and as agreed I sent Red.B. a few pups.
All my pups were extremely strong , and they would fight ferociously, but when taken to the corner, they would not scratch, just like their Grandfather. All the pups I had out of Chainsaw and my bitch were the same- will not scratch -in my opinion just curs.I got rid of a few mine by the time they were 18 months and Red felt I was too harsh, so I sent RED all the remaining young dogs out of the litter . Red kept them till they were 3 years old, and not ONE of them came out of their corner. I am sure Willie also had some pups out of Chainsaw, who proved himself was a very very game dog, but his father was a cur.
To me I will not breed when I know there is a cur in the past 3 generations. That is me.
What you guys conclude, and come to different decisions is a matter of philosophy.
2017-03-29 17:33:28: K. P.: THE EL KAPITAN!
"Around the mid 80s the American dog scene started sliding fast into an abyss. I could see this coming a long time ago, and I spoke up and for that I was disliked .I have stopped my subscription to SDJ and I was a member when it started as hand printed magazine, the first edition coming out in 1970. After mid 80s, more match reports were just a product of imagination.Most drug dealers came into the dogs. Either they bought dogs or they stole them, and people thought nothing about buying a stolen dog. Stealing dogs came very common in USA. I remember the time when a dog was stolen from Andre Giroux, he went straight to the thief's house, knocked at the door, shot the thief right in his stomach and took the dog back home. There was no more dog stealing in Canada. Andre spent a few years in jail for that. Those were times when the law did consider the circumstances.
Not only the matches were fake, and in the real matches if the wager was 300$ it was written as 30 thousand $. If the match went 15 minute it was written as 1hour 15 minutes. There was no more truth, everything was spiraling down. Roll was written up as a match, a man was beginning to be known by the name of the dog!!! Every body knew the ART dog, but not many did not know the owner! You understand what I mean? Many people got out of dogs because they did not want to get involved with the drug dealers and the pimps and the thieves.
It did not matter to me, I fought them all, and I burned their pockets. Good dogmen was scared of the money of these drug dealer, to me it did not matter where the money came from. The moment I cut the people to 5 or 6 to a side, the drug dealers had no more big money to bet.
Maybe some of the members here like Wardog may remember these characters. I will just call him "LOGUE", one of the bigwigs of street business in Columbia SC. He had a 4XW called 'Hawk'. I fought this Hawk with as much money they could muster with a 16 month dog I had. This would be around 91-92. These guys were getting dogs from Pitbull Rick, Kirby Chavis and such people, so I never even hesitated for 1 minute. Logue and company wanted to match for 40 thousand and I said ok. When the day came to put the forfeit they reduced to 10 thousand and they had problem to put the full forfeit so i gave them 2 more days. When it was over the 4XW Hawk tried to jump the pit in 40 minutes, they lost their ill gotten money and never bothered me again. I think even today they will not speak bad about me. You can beat their dog for 300$, they are back barking like the curs, but you hit them hard in their pocket, they respect you and are gone forever. This is the same today. All these guys tell me they fight dogs NOT for money, but for the SPORT. LOL Many of you are rich that you can afford the luxury of matching dog as a past time, as a SPORT. I cannot as I make my living from this 'sport'." There are many many things we do not speak and much of that, we take to the grave. Nobody has talked about the sequence of events after a dog called Pit General was stolen. It is of no consequence to anyone anything which happened afterward. Mr Mayfield's then partner, Jimmy Jobe was shot and killed.

I am not sure Ricky Jones is alive or dead. it does not make any difference. Ricky Jones can be credited with changing the whole dog scene. He is the modern day dogman who started using Kennel name.- Rebel Kennels. Before the Kennel names were used by people who was showing pretty dogs in pretty dog shows, and Ricky Jones had come from such a background.
Jones had champions and grand champions and many many dogs with title. There must be somebody on this board who had matched a dog with Ricky Jones. Anybody? I can predict, if anybody has done it- the guy had to go to Rickys house and a very good party on drugs and alcohol, and matched his dog for maximum 500$ and lost the fight fast. This was the typical of Rickys fight!!. Ricky gave the impression that he fights dog for much money and most believed it. Ricky wanted to challenge me because I had called him a 300$ dogman. We talked once on the phone and I told him I will meet him half way- which he refused.
Kenneth Alan phoned me once and said that he was planning to match 4 dogs with Ricky Jones going to his place and I advised him strongly against it. Kenneth matched these dogs for considerable amount of money and I make it a point to find details about possible opponents well in advance so I knew all about Ricky Jones finances. Kenneth had no chance to win, if he won then he would be getting paid with fake money .Kenneth lost all 4 fights in a manner which was dubious to Kenneth and then he talked to me again. I simply shrugged my shoulder and said, you made the decision, so you pay. That is all you can do as a man with honor. Then he told me this "Captain now I understand why you do not go to peoples house and insist they meet you in the middle"
Ricky Jones was not busted for drugs or dogs, he was busted for counterfeit money. This was the time millions and millions of counterfeit US money was circulated in USA, presumably by Saddam Hussein of Iraq. No government will tolerate their economy to be sabotaged. Ricky was just a small fly, but they needed information. This I believe to be the facts of the matter.
Rubbing dogs are rearing its ugly head again. Every where you have to be extremely careful. If you bring them out of their country, meet half way, then the chances of foul play is reduced greatly.
Flipboy can verify this if he wants to, as he is just an innocent bystander. I was in Philippine just recently. Two good guys made a match in front of me. So I suggested to both.:- After you have washed your dogs, each person take a clean sponge and wipe his own dog and squeeze a few drops in his own dogs mouth. People who matches dogs will understand why and for what etc.etc. Both parties agreed immediately.Flip boy can comment if he wants to.
This I will insist in all matches, and if a party does not want to do it, then it is better I find some one else to match.
Looking at the records of Champions and Grand Champions in SDJ, you may come across a dog named Z-BOY. I am not sure if he was a Gr.Champion or just Champion. The record also will show that the owner as Pitbull Rick or Magic pitkennel. I will narrate here one his glorious fights. I was at this time living in SC with a few dogs. On my way to the town of Orangeburg I had to pass Pit Bull Ricks house. This was the time all the guys, most of you heard of- like Chavis, Tant, Pitbull Rick, Diamond Dan, Hill top Mike,Gangbusters ,Texas Ron, Melvin Gainey, Sandhill Chris and many more were based in SC. I moved to SC looking for battles.I do not want to go on a tangent, so let me stick with Z-Boy.Naturally Rick has been keeping Z-boy in some sort of condition all the time. One day around 1700 on my way back home, I stopped over at Pitbull Rick. It was not a good day for Rick as he had not sold any dog for 2 days and he was broke and he was trying to get some money to put some food on the table. Please- you have not misunderstood- that is the way a few dogmen lived, day to day, and if they did not sell a dog in a week they had problems for them to survive. In praise of Rick I must say he was one of the few who made sure his dogs ate before he ate, and for this ONE reason I tolerated Rick with all his misgivings.
He told me that no "fish" came and he had to get some money as he was desperate.If I could lend him 50$ for a few hours, he could make a match with Texas Ron. Ron usually got on to hard liquor by 1000 and by evening he would be hammered and Rick wanted to catch him and make a match that night!!!!. He got on the phone and within a few minutes, made a match for his Z-boy. Naturally Rick kept his dog in half decent shape hoping to catch someone like Texas Ron. The match to take place within 3 hours. The match was for 50$. Z-Boy vs Texas Ron's Vodka (yes the name of the dog was Vodka). I think this was Z-boys 3rd or 4th fight. (Somebody could post the wins of Z boy?) Within 2 hours Rick was in Texas Ron's place and I just tagged along to protect my 50$!!! LOL. Because of the short notice,there were not many people and I was banking on that, but there were about 15 people or so. This dog Vodka was a better dog, but kept by a drunk, who came right off the chain. Z-boy won, Rick collected the 50$ and I got my 50$ back, and one more win for the dog who will become Champion or Grand Champion. These are the facts. I have seen with my own eyes,Rick and Kirby Chavis sending dogs to far away places, selling these dogs for 3- 4 thousand $, the dogs they buy from flea markets, shave their tail of thick bushy hair and sell them as Redboy Jocko.
Only if people have the eyes to see, most will get out of these dogs because most of them have the product from people like Kirby Chavis, Pitbull Rick,Norrod and so on and so forth.
This is how we lost our heritage. Two key figures in this narrative is no more with us- they are Pitbull Rick and Ratliff(untouchable).
All this happened in the early 90s and I was in the thick of things-as I had moved to SC looking for opponents.
PitBul Rick had already moved to SC from NY and operating under the name PitMagic Kennels.(may be Magic Pit Kennels?) The dog Daisey may was bred and owned by Rick and I have seen this bitch in his yard as an old bitch. He bred this Daisy Mae to Buck when STP owned Buck. Out of that breeding came Buktus and some other dogs named Leaky and Saline etc.etc. All these dogs were bred by Pitbull Rick. Rick in my view was a very good person at heart, but he had his personal demons to fight and also had to fight the "monkey on his back" I still keep in touch with his widow and she has seen more about dogs than most of us will ever see. In my rough estimate Pitbull Rick might have 'dealt' in over 3000 dogs in his life, because he lived by dealing dogs.
I have written the same narrative when Untouchable and Rick was living so I am not writing something when the main players are not living anymore.
Rick rolled this Buktus when he was very young and did not like him, and sold him to his neighbor- Marin Kennels-a start up kennel- for 50$. Marin Kennel kept Buktus for some time, rolled him and did not like him , so sold to Bubba Davis a.k.a Diamond Dan for 50$. Bubba did not like the dog and exchanged Buktus to the veteran Ratliff.
After Ratliff getting Buktus there appeared in SDJ 2 reports about Buktus winning matches. None in that area knew whom Bukts won against and started pointing fingers at Ratliff. To put the end to all these whispering Tom decided to make a match in front of all the nay- sayers in SC area. Ratliff got in touch with his friend Scrapyard Mike , and asked his help to find a proper opponent in the local area. Scrapyard Mike quickly found the opponent in Marin kennels (the same guy who had Buktus from Pitbull Rick). Marin kennels has been in dogs at this time about 2 to 3 years and had at that time a dog of dubious breeding- supposed to be a cross with a Bull Terrier or something like that. So the match was set between Buktus and Marin kennels Terrier cross dog.I think the wager was 100$ . This is where the 'game loss' happened to Buktus in about 40 minutes (I am not sure of the time). After this game loss there was another win for Buktus, again no one in the area knew about the opponents. If anyone of you have access to Buktus 4 matches as reported in the SDJ, it will be nice of you can post it here. I stopped getting SDJ in the late 80s because I could see that most of the matches reported were pure fiction.
The above are the facts in a nutshell. What Buktus produced etc.etc. is not known to me personally except what I have read in various publications. It is possible that Buktus could have produced excellent dogs, but the above is a narrative based on facts that I personally know. It will be interesting to hear from others who has PERSONAL knowledge regarding any other related facts.
Malice towards none.
Things were not always as appeared to the outside world. Once, it so happened, I was with Tom and he said he was going to see and do some dog deals with Wildside.We pulled up to his driveway and Ed greeted Tom warmly and they went about their business. Tom had a chainsaw(not working- some small problems) and a gasoline powered lawn mower(which also had some malfunction). Tom did manage to trade these 2 items for a first class match dog and a prospect. On the ride back Tom asked me if I wanted to buy the match dog for a brand new lawn mower, as Tom had no more lawn mower to cut grass in his dog yard.
Ed is still around, may be not so free, but I knew him when he lived in the Cold country, way up North. At that time he was working in a pet food store and he had bought 2 dogs-pitbulls of course. He then invited his coworker to come and see the wonderful sport of dog fighting. So the coworker came and Ed did roll the 2 dogs for a few minutes, and the co-worker promptly reported that to the police. This is the dog-fighting bust he is referring in his book.
Now about the lawn mower- In those days Bubba davis a.k.a Diamond Dan(Gr.Ch.Ms panther fame) was one of the top dogmen in S.C, at least I was so told by Diamond Dan and his partner Hill Top Mike. They had this special keep called 'lawn mower keep'. The dog was securely tied up with a heavy chain and the lawn mower was started, and the dog goes into a frenzy- so after securing the lawn mower they go and have couple of beers and come back after an hour or so. You can imagine the condition the dog would be and when they told me how they will condition their dogs by lawn mower keep, I truly admired these guys because they knew about "maximum stress" before the late Millmaker thought of the word even.
May be someone more familiar with this lawn mower keep can compare this to hand walking or the Treadmill?
There are many many "keeps" just like there are many many bloods, and I do not want to give out all the secrets.
For the lawn mower keep, if you are a novice it may be a good idea to remove the blades, and better idea not to use this in your garage where most of you may be working your canine athletes.
I am of the opinion men of the past were much better than the ones we see today. The dogs were much better in every aspect. I give below a write up by George Read in the1920s about game dogs. He describes them as 3 types. In his own words.

Type.No.1
The Sticker. And that is about all. Here is the proverbial mutt. Anyway that is what he looks like out of the pit.But,boys,beware! game dogs of this type is generally closely inbred, thus accounting for their many weaknesses. Likewise remember doubly intensifying their gameness. They area bear for absorbing punishment, seeming to actually like it and thrive on it. Their fighting instinct is ever present, but the other dog's superior strength carries the fight from the start. Some specimens of this type even go so far to lay around and let their opponent chew and throw them all over the pit until he becomes exhausted and then they stagger up all bloody and repay the debt in full, winning the fight. The best example of this type I know of in this part of the country is owned at present by F.H.Mc Lain, Paddy Mac- Colby Country blood lines
(the above was written and published in 1926. I can say from my personal experience, Don Maloney and Andre Giroux of Montreal had a few of these wonderful deep game stickers)
2017-03-30 08:16:38: K. P.: EL KAPITAN 3:
"KENTUCKY'S FOREMOST FIGHTING DOG NOT AT STUD

This is the boy who ran the wind -bags to cover in Louisville,Ky. On Jan.15 , 1926 he killed the good dog Kurtzendofer's Jerry in 28 minutes. On May the 5th he killed that crack fighting dog Koch's Duke(161357) in 27 minutes. He is open to match. I bar none at his weight, 40 lbs., and also Lighthouse Joker at 35 pounds, Little Queen at 24 pounds, Bess at 27 pounds.
The so called best ones around Louisville are cordially invited to get any of these at the weight, for any part of 500$, or I will fight them for nothing. H.H.Morris preferred and his so called best ones.
I own these dogs and I back them with my own money in the pit fair and square.
TOMMY BEUTHER
2512 Congress Street, Louisville,Ky.

The above is a challenge posted by Mr.Beuther in 1926. As any one can guess this was directed to Ham Morris.
500$ is a lot of money in 1926. I always liked people like Tommy Beuther.

The quality of dogs and men have steadily gone down."
2017-03-30 09:53:54: K. P.: THE EL KAPITAN 4:
I cannot understand the motive or purpose for many dogmen to make a simple problem into complicated mess. it is my belief, most dogmen has just started walking on their 2 legs, before they were walking on 4 legs.(expression borrowed from California jack).
Recently a member here had a match. He won the match and he said he would make a deal with me with this dog as I have shown an interest in this weight. Unfortunately the dog did not survive the battle and the owner informed me so. I wrote that after a strenuous, hard fought battle it is better to give NO SOLID food for 3 days, but just Soup. May be the owner knew this already, he was polite to reply "thanks".I have lost a few dogs on the 3rd day, because of the lack of knowledge. I remember DWB loosing a very good dog on the 3rd day, because after 2 days of soup he decided to give solid food. I am stating all this from my experience and drawing my own conclusion. I am not interested in a discussion with anyone who feels what I am saying about soup for 3 days- go ahead and do your own thing. In all probability these guys never matched a dog or will never match a dog but they want the whole world to know that they are real dog fighters. These are simple matters, but no they want to discuss and argue and call bad name on such tings as what blood will mix with what blood. People who has some brains, just think about it.
I get a few PMs from people asking what he could have done better in the conditioning as he just lost a match..
What can I say except to draw from my experience. I can state my most recent experience. I had a match with Miki from Philippine. Very nice people. It was a very hard fought battle in high temperature.. It was not one sided but I thought I had the upper hand. Just over the hour mark, on the first scratch, my dog quit standing on 4 legs. What can I say within reason, except my dog was not game dog? I could not have done anything in his conditioning which would have made him win the match. Truth is there before my eyes. I hoped he would be game enough to make one or 2 scratches when he was not tired, and not getting killed. My assumption was wrong- he was very poor dog- to put it bluntly he was cur. To me this is the simple way to look at things than make it complicated by stating that I should have run him 2 more minutes on the mill etc.etc. These are the kind of RUBBISH most of these Neanderthals dogmen is interested to discuss.
Every pitbull is NOT a fighting dog. Now a days, I would make a wild guess and say 7 out of 10 will quit under 30 minutes, irrespective of the condition you bring your dog. Mad max, Pat of P@A kennel etc.etc. we all got together and rolled 4 set of dogs for 30 minutes. All 4 quit under 30 minutes.
If your dog is NOT a good worker, the chance of you winning a match is very very less.
There is much talked about match between Jeep and Budo. (1XW against a 2X W) I can take a bet that this will be over under 1 hour.
n early 90s I was in the Carolinas, as always, looking for matches. In that time frame,was the 1st UFC with Hoyce Gracie winning the tournament. This was high exposure event. I had a few friends who were in contact sports, and some of them had bulldogs.There was one person, who is now well known in UFC, came to talk with me a few times about dogs, training, food etc.etc. At that time I had improvised some "chain pulling " system . This sportsman was intrigued by my system, and I was later told that a very similar system is very common in that sports. A few in Thailand uses that system as CEK by constant spying on me got to know this system. I am sure that many pit-men in many countries use very similar systems.
I have no comment if pulling chains or weights, or running on treadmill is good or bad.When the subject of conditioning comes, I prefer to keep my thoughts to myself. I have privately talked with a few on these matters, as I knew those guys did match dogs.
In a battle, when my enemy is armed with bamboo spears and I have machine gun, why would I be stupid to tell my enemies how to get a machine gun?
What is this nice workout ? To me it is getting up at 0400 and working my dogs till about 1100. To you a nice workout means - the dog to go and get your packet of cigarette from the table? So what is the next step? You come and sit in my house and see I do nothing, and I come to your house and sit that your dog does nothing.? Why not think in a different perspective? You want to see whose dog is better? Right? Why not when you come to the pit side, we exchange dogs? Do you think this is a good idea?
Yours is not a new idea. I had very similar discussion with a young man who told me that he will never be without these bulldogs and his devotion was openly displayed with several tattooe on all part of his body.
He said he wanted to match with me but I wanted to fight for much money(1000$) and if I could come down, he would definitely fight with me so I agreed to match at his money level- 300$
Then he said that, now the money is ok, but I could be using steroids so he cannot fight me. So I agreed to give him whatever steroids he wanted.The next hurdle was, he did not know what steroids to give and the dosage.
There were never ending hurdles why he could not match with me or for that matter with anyone. Finally about 2 years of this discussion, the guy just disappeared. Like you, he wanted to know which dog would be better without conditioning, steroids etc.etc.
One day he called me out of the blue and said he wanted to match a dog with me the very next day. Yes in 24 hours!!! He said the weight of the dog and I told him that I could do it the very next day, but we had to increase the bet.As he had not enough money he pledged a Jeep half ton truck- 4 wheel drive with a snow plough already fitted.We did fight the dogs, and I think it lasted less than 20 minutes, and I used the jeep truck for nearly 10 years to clear my drive way of snow. LOL
This guy was conditioning his dog quietly all this time , and using all kind of steroids and much more. As another poster, stated, if he had not conditioned his dog he would have gone a little more longer. Is this the reason you want to do the matches with out conditioning the dogs?
If that is the reason the best way, is to exchange the dogs upon arrival at the pit side.We call this - match under Indian rules. I learned about this rule long time ago from the Chippawa Indians- who are my brothers.
Many people ask me about European dogmen. Most of them are better class of PEOPLE than the ones you meet in USA or Philippines. In USA and in Philippines there are a few decent pitmen, but they keep doing their things quietly and that is commendable.
The bravest man in Europe I met was from UK. He is known as Dr.Death. He is still alive unfortunately not free to do what he likes. We made a few matches, in Europe, it took very little time to come to an agreement. You can see how many posts are made to make a match with the Serbians, always talking in circles, never facing the issue
There is one poster here by the name Serbianman. I think a very good guy. He says he does not match dogs anymore. The matter is over. I have more respect for him than the guys who talk and talk and SAY NOTHING.
I matched a few dogs with Dr.Death. Who won, who lost is NOT important to me.
After our final meeting. we shook hands,sat down and had a cup of coffee and he said "Captain, I have no more dogs to match with you" We will have good dogs and some times not so good dogs, but our honor we must always keep.
I told Dr.Death, if he wants a fair dog, I will be glad to send him one, so that we can engage in this honorable battle.
Limey kennel is very well known in Europe, and they used to avoid Dr.Death. STP is well known all over the world, but he tried his best to avoid Hardcore. Serbians pitmen keep on talking how great dogs they have, they will not come out of their kitchen. That is a fact. These dogs became too popular in the 80s and every guy put on the mantle of the breeder and were asking extorbitant prices for puppies and dogs, and were getting it. I think now it has reached a normal state.
There are many guys with dogs and most of them are breeding and breeding, and many pups in the market, but NO BUYERS. The only guys who will buy dogs are the guys who are fighting dogs, and they want fighting dogs, not pedigrees, and nobody is fighting dogs or breeding fighting dogs. If you look closely the market place here, there are some pups advertised, and i can make a small wager that not many pups were sold. Now the same pups advertised for 1000$ for sale is being offered for 300$ as one year dogs, and still no buyers.
I was recently in Europe and there were many many grown dogs for sale in Balkans for less than 500$. What are they good for? I do not know.
Recently there was a convention in Serbia, and the police came. People are getting wiser and I believe there will be not many more shows in Belgrade. There are a few good guys left in Croatia.
South Africa seems to be the peddlers market in the near future, but there are some smart guys in South Africa, so it may not be that easy to flood the market.
Now I see pups for 300-350$, reasonable price, same as in the 80s, but the only difference is that, in the 80s puppies came out of fighting dogs, and not from paper hounds.
smart men like Garner and others will always have the lion share of the market. Patrick is trying to get back into the market i hear, and he will find not many are interested to buy because there is no market.
In my opinion, the prospective buyers should wait. have patience, in the end you will be rewarded . Most of matters I post is for your consideration, examinations, and you can make your own conclusions. Needless to say, I have very low opinion on the moral character of the dogmen, and their intellectual ability to absorb anything, so my posts are not meant to educate anyone. IF you can dissect and digest these matters , well and good. I will not engage in any useless discussions, except in the case of matching dogs. Now I believe I will be engaging in a useless discussion with Mr.Boliodogs or Pat Patrick and I can wager 50$ with anyone, all these legends are in their own mind, to step into the pit is another matter.
Pedigrees and how to read them I leave that to better people than me and there are many here.
Some of you may be into other sports also like chickens and pigeons. both these are birds and one cannot fly long distances and the other can. When a knowledgable person look at the structure of these 2 birds, it will be self evident that why a chicken cannot fly long distance and why a pigeon can. In a similar fashion when you look at dogs closely, with some basic knowledge, you can make an educated guess,why such and such a dog cannot be a good fighting dog, irrespective of the pedigree shown. For this, one has to educate himself, but it is not that difficult as the mysterious aspect of gameness. The peddlers have no knowledge of these matters, so they repeat ad infinitum the same thing , pedigree, blood line and repeats these all over again and again.
I hope to post some pictures (photos) of earlier dogs, before Patrick and Mayfield, Carver et al. When you look at those photos, SOME of you may see a fighting dog, and most of you will see just a photo of another dog.
If you ask yourself these 2 questions. If you cannot see a fighting dog then you can discuss the pedigree endlessly.
1. Am I cut out to be a pitman? 2. Do I have to courage to match dogs ? If you are truthful, you will get the answer NO to both questions and if you act on that you will get out of dogs, and there will be less messages on all online/internet forums and less members.
My position with reference to pedigrees has not been clearly understood. I am afraid, the fault lies with me, as I am/was not able to make a logical argument regarding this matter. So here I would like to discuss this matter in a rational manner. Nothing vague or philosophical.
Let me take Gr.Ch.Buck. Most of you are familiar with this dog and his pedigree. To begin with, I would like your opinion on the following.
What was his color? Whom did he inherit this color from?
What was his fighting style? from whom did he inherit this from?
In our system, under Cajun Rules, he was considered to be very very game. from what dog did he inherit this "game" trait.
I hope this is not complicated. Your opinions please. nothing vague, must be clear. Most of you believe in pedigrees should be able to express your opinion in a rational and clear manner. Please post Bucks pedigree as you know it.

ADBA always registered the dogs as per the information SUPPLIED BY THE BREEDER. So the original pedigree showed the sire as Goldenboy. This information was supplied to ADBA by pat patrick himself. May be somebody could show the pedigree of Goldenboy?
When did this change in pedigree happened.?
Gpldenboy was a 4X winner at that time, and his 5th fight against Butch, he LOST. Buck was born some time ago. When Goldenboy lost, suddenly the sire of Buck became Little Tater . So you can believe whatever pedigree you want, so all the breeding done by the scientific pedigree readers are based on which story. Patrick (or someone representing him) is a member here under the user name bolio dogs.
How does Buck fight? he turns, he cries, he puts his front paws on the pitwall, he soes everything except to jump the pit but taken to the corner. he will scratch
That is Buck's style. That is not from Klaus Zeke (fitzwaters Goldie), but from Maloney dogs.
I have fought a few of the dogs from Buck, and if you have hard fighting, hard charging dog, these dogs will clear the wall. This is the way I see it.
Just because pat patrick decided to put a new pedigree on Buck, does that become the real pedigree?
So what is the basis of your analysis based on pedigree worth?
we are just having a open and rational discussion. I believe pedigree is VERY important. Almost all pedigrees today is fake/ false pedigrees.
This dog, Godfather, is out of Mr. X dogs, by the the way of Stonecity kennels.. immediately I realized, after talking about his matches,he is a Buck-like dog. Though the next fight was again against Mr. X, I suggested to him that I handle Mr. X dog.We did not have a dog to beat this godfather, but I have some experience in handling against such dogs. If I remember correctly, the opponent x picked up the dog- and thus lost the fight. If the owners knew little about their dogs pedigree and his fighting style, in all honesty, I feel they COULD have won the fight.
Now you telling me that " pedigree in this case is not important" ????
Just for our Balkan members, i can discuss about a dog in their region. Some of these dogs are known as Ziko-dogs?
Or is it Jiko-dogs? These dogs are coming out of a dog called Zero, which we had in Thailand for sometime. This Zero is supposed to be a son of Buster Brown who is a son of Buck.
Zduwach has posted the pedigree of the correct dog- the dog Zero, the sire of the dog shown in the pedigree. I was involved in the negotiations. Art of Siam traded a very good brood bitch named "Red Lady" for this dog "Zero". This dog Zero was in Thailand for a long time.
Marasonja kennel had split-up more or less by this time.I was and am friendly with the owners, and I suggested to them for this trade, Zero in Europe and Red Lady in Bangkok.
When I saw some sons out of Zero, I started questioning the owner-marasonja- about Zero, because all the off springs out of Zero was hard driving dogs.I had my own doubts about the pedigree of Zero. The owner of Zero has a very good and a long relation with me, so he decided to check this out. This dog Zero was born in Germany, and the owner of Buster brown had also a dog called Bullet, a very hard driving dog. I know of this dog Bullet also. The guy who bred the dog for the owner of Buster Browns also lived in germany, named Marcus. The actual father of Zero is Bullet and NOT Buster brown. This was revealed by the owner of Buster Brown and Bullet, though he had no part in this deception as he had some personal problem and he was away. because Buster Brown was a champion, Markus decided to change the actual sire and put the name of Buster Brown for quick sale of the puppies. These kind of deceptions are common in USA and also in Europe. So what is the basis of breeding based on the pedigree.
Zduwach has mentioned about a match in Balkans. If I am not mistaken, the Komany kennels is from Croatia?
Pat patrick owned Gr.Ch.Hank for some time. Hank was a turning dog, but a game dog within the context our sports. Hank was bought by Andre Giroux from Patrick and he bred a few litter. Giroux's conception of gameness was different, so this turning style of Hank and his sons were not to Andres liking . I am not sure if the Komany kennels had some of the dogs of Hank out of Andre Giroux's breeding. Andre sold Hank to captain America and dogs out of that breeding was touted by captain America as "double dead game" .
all these pedigrees means= absolute fabrication.
I keep my own handwritten pedigree for my own reference.

 

Loposay`s Buster ROM

From the breeding of Walling’s Bullyson to Art’s Missy there came a litter of well known dogs: Hudson’s Tex, Holt’s Jeremiah, Davis’ White Bull, H. L.’s Rojo, Kemmer’s Macho, Gomez’ Toot, Giroux’ Black Pinky, Ramsey’s Arty, Reddick’s Tootsie Roll, Petronelli’s Fox, Lott’s Dr. Pepper, Carver’s Belle, Carver’s Black Missy, Carver’s White Bull, Art’s Big Boy, Bickett’s Boze, Hudes’ Spade, Carson’s Spook, J. Carver’s Nassan, Perry’s Big Missy, Perry’s White Missy, and Loposay’s Buster to name a few.

I believe it was 1973 when Mr. Loposay purchased Buster from Maurice Carver.

Mr. Loposay’s friend John Shivar of Fla. worked for an airline, and he could fly to Tx and pick up Buster for free. Shivar agreed to do this as long as he could use Buster for a short time as he had a couple of his best bitches coming in season. The agreement was made and Mr. Shivar brought Buster to his home in Fla. and was bred to a couple of his best. Not a month had passed before Mr. Shivar had passed away. J.R. Loposay made the trip to Fla. and brought Buster back to Sanford, NC. One month later Mr. Loposay passed away.

Most all the famous breedings of Buster were made by Mrs. Loposay and their daughter untill Buster passed on in 81.

Through the years in fast company the talk around the campfire was that Buster was really a Colby dog.

In 1978 the late Andre Giroux reported a match he had just won with a son of Davis’ Gr. Ch. Boomerang that he called Paddy (Trulock’s Ch. Spike in some peds thanks to the G-Man). This was Paddy’s third win and Andre also wanted to register him as a Champion. During the course of the conversation Andre was bemoaning the fact he didn’t have a thing to breed Paddy to, that is nothing that he thought would cross well with Paddy. Andre was reminded that he did have a bitch that would look real good bred to Paddy. The bitch was called Black Pinky and was one of the 30 or so odd dogs that was registered as being sired by Bullyson out of Art’s Missy.

Andre never liked that old bitch, he claimed she was as ugly as any bitch he had ever seen. Someone had cut off her ears and her tail and she was scared from head to toe. Andre had matched her one time and had to pick her up in nine minutes with a bad bleeder (actually she jumped the rail and ran for the hills). Andre had farmed her out after she lost and as he thought about it, he did admit that the bitch was as ugly as sin. At last Andre agreed that the breeding looked like a good one and then he said, “I’ll make the breeding and if they have pups, I’ll send you a couple odd male pups.”

Some time later Andre called again and said that Black Pinky had whelped five in that litter, three male pups and would I mind if he just sent me one pup instead of the two he promised. He sent me a little black pup, chunky built and undershot that even at his early age, he looked like he was in charge of everything around him. Andre registered the dog with ADBA and named him Black Flash.

Irish Tom purchased a son of Buster he named Justice. Rebel Kennel’s had a belly brother to Justice named Son Dance, on some peds Sundance. Justice was registered as Morgan’s Toro as these dogs were bred by the late Vern Morgan.

Hudson’s Tex was highly touted in his match career, so much so that it was planned for him to go into Ch. Greaser. As luck, or fate, or whatever you desire to call it goes, Tex got hurt in a chain fight and Hudson was going to have to pay the forfeit. Rather than give away money, he called and asked if Adams would take over the match with Zebo. Zebo eventually went on to win this legenary match. Tex was later matched into D. Devine (Coleman’s) Ace (Cassius Clay breeding). Tex was all over Ace, but not doing much damage, while Ace was. At :17 a turn was called on Ace. At the :55 min mark, after 14 scratches each, Tex was ahead, but Ace did alot of damage from the bottom, and took over the fight. Tex made his last six scratches game, stumbling ones. Ace won in 1:17, Tex lost dead game when attempting his last scratch he took a few steps forward and collapsed. He died shortly after the fight

 

LIMITED EDITION KENN GR.CH. 12 GAUGE AKA VOODOO DOLLY 6XW

http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=560674

 

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=665

HOLLINGSWORTH'S CH.PINKY 5xW 1xL
Hollingsworth’s Ch. Pinky was born July 7th. 1989 the result of a second generation breeding by Mike & Dot Kelly. They had a deep game bitch named Ruby out of Jone’s Ch. Smoker and Frank Rocca’s Red Gal that they bred to Patrick’s little Tater and they bred a bitch out of that breeding to Laminack’s Trouble a son of Ch. Tonka that produced Ch. Tara and Ch. Flint to produce Pinky’s litter. Pinky was sold or given to the late E. Hollingsworth as a pup. Ed Farron in turn purchased the pup (Pinky) from Mr. Hollingsworth along with several other dogs. Pinky’s first roll came at about 18 months of age, a real rough hard biting bitch by the name of sugar Mae was used and Pinky was the down dog from start to finish @ :25 Pinky never made any bad moves and made a stumbling scratch. A couple months later a young Jeep/Nigerino bitch was put on her, and Pinky was used to start this bitch. When the bitch got onto Pinky’s nose Pinky made a lot of bad signs, she even went as far as turning away from the young bitch. At this point most felt that Pinky was a cur. R. Davis really wanted Pinky and asked Ed repeatedly for her. Ed agreed to let Davis have the dog with the stipulation that if she did indeed turn out to be a game dog that they would get pups back from her in future litters.

About 3 months later Pinky had been sold again and at this point it was still thought Pinky was a cur. Looking back Ed felt that Pinky had never turned on @ 18 months, and Pinky was not ruined permanently in her second roll and got another chance that most dogs never get. After all Pinky’s littermate Manson had lost his first match in over an hour and won his second dead game.

Far too many dogmen feel that at 18 months a dog should be ready to be tested and rolled hard, while it is not feasible to hold a dog beyond 18 months for most large dog yards. There have been many a great dog that did not turn on till later in life, and have gone on to become Champions and grand champions.

Pinky was sold again to Hilltop Mike and it was Mike who set Pinky down for her game test on a very hard biting bitch and tried to stop her. With all he had heard about her in her second roll he was very concerned she was a cur she went :45 min. with this bitch and never made a bad sign. Mike then decided to match her @ 42 lbs. Pinky came in at 41 and won in :38 after an all out war, with both dogs dishing out lots of punishment. Pinky had won best in show over 4 matches that same day; some of the dogs of mention were the untouchables Ch. Butkus, McDaniel’s Feisty & Gaston’s Pea. One report in the American Warrior wrote Hilltop Mikes Pinky vs. Newjacks “Leather” females @ 42, Pinky plows a field through leather and leather takes the count @ :38 another match reported was against the Untouchables Vixon vs. Hilltop Mikes Pinky females @41 Pinky a 1x winner Pinky does the barnstorming and Vixon takes the count @ :06 I believe Vixon was lost after that show. And Pinky was on her way to becoming a Champion. Pinky goes on to win another in :17 with a pit kill, she was sold again this time to T.R. he kept Pinky for a while and she was sold again to Killer Bee. At 5 years of age Killer Bee matched Pinky again and she wins in :31 with yet another pit kill. At 6 years of age she is matched again this one went 2:36 with no turn or out of holds and Pinky is picked up game and makes a stumbling scratch, this was by far Pinky’s greatest test and with all odds against her she finishes with a game loss.

We had heard that Killer Bee was in the market for some younger dogs and asked if we were interested in Pinky, needless to say we wanted her at any rate we worked out a deal for a 1x winning son of Stratton’s Mozart (Bill) out of CBK’s Olive Oyle Popeye has gone on to make his GR CH and to date has won 7 shows and made over 30,000.00 in his carrier. Pinky was in rough shape when we got her and we did all we could to get her back to health and bred her to Popeye’s littermate Beekman (dead game); from that litter came Whitehead, a good brood bitch we have here and Jake, a winner himself. The second breeding we made was to Stark’s Jasper (CBK’S), a double-bred son of Patrick’s Macho Jr. dog. While these pups are still young they are showing a lot of promise: one that comes to mind is CBK’s “Jinx” and two others that have been rolled and have shown excellent results. We expect to see dogs matched off that breeding this year.

After Pinky’s breeding with Jasper her health began to decline rapidly. While she had a lot of problems with old injures, her greatest hurdle was yet to come: heart failure. At this point knowing Pinky could never be bred again we decided she would be just an old dog we would keep around through her later years, and a great conversation piece. Pinky was one of a kind, as I knew her, she was one of those once in a life time dogs that every dog man dreams of owning. Her temperament was un- surpassable and of the kind we would like to see in all pit dogs, her heart was as big as they come, her mouth was as hard as they get and her ability to get the job done was beyond what most of the so called fast lane dogs of today are. At the age of nine her health had declined to the point she was no longer enjoying life the way she always had and I felt it was in her best interest for me to make her final scratch, one of the hardest I have ever made. As she slumped in my arms the tears ran down my face although I had never campaigned her or saw her many victories, her life had flashed before my eyes. In the spring of 98 she was laid to rest in Chapel Hill, NC. Her sons and daughters live on at Cedarbrook kennels to follow their dam’s footsteps.

Ch. Pinky was centerfold for the American Dog Breeders Ass. Summer of 98 vol. 22 issue 4. A poem was written beside her picture that reads:

“As we pay tribute to mothers day, its only fitting we do. Select a bitch that lights the way, she’s Hollingsworth’s Ch. Pinky, tried and true. The path she travelled far, “she’s much to young” an old man said, surprise them all, become a star. The bloom of youth did never fade. A look, a sigh, she twirled around, A flirt a bark, “please see me”. She even climbed a peach tree. A residential change took place, “perhaps they’ll be much kinder. And put a smile back on my face, like my video rewinder. Soon the lustre of the show, remained, just a memory. The bloom was gone indeed, although, she felt was temporary. When born the date was eighty-nine, “she’s damn near pink, that red nosed bitch. She’s full of spunk, and body fine, She’ll be a Champ, without a hitch.” She settled down, but still was young; her thoughts were on the future. On show time day she’d come unstrung, as empty crates passed by her. “What’s up! ol’ gal, you’ve had your fame, A mother soon you’ll be, Reminds me of your mother game, You’re like your grandma Ruby.

She wasn’t wrong, for dog men say; It’s seeing is believing time. There’ll always be that one more day, And Pinky she did shine, She’s gone on now, a life well lived, Her sons did make her proud. She had it all that life could give, She always played the crowd.”

R.I.P. Ch. Pinky I will never forget you.

 

must have posted twice sorry!

 

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.co...CakAOpxX6FBD9oeoDqQPgLgD4dTgP3cDjGM63Z66rGqzU

 

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.co...k1EiF3-QvUQwAOYMOuCuJThJDVskHNKt4fO3244RYgwps

 

I really like this dog Champion Homer.

 

GR CH. MAJSKI'S ZUJA 6xW ROM

Sire: B.B.K'S (KNEZEVIC'S)(DAKO & STOLE'S) GYPSY CH 3xW ROM
Dam: BEDEM'S MEDENA POR
Sex: female
Land of Birth: Montenegro
Land of Standing: Montenegro
Colour: Yellow
Titles: GR CH 6xW ROM
ROM points: 3/3
POR points: 12/10
Produce:
Ch Tramp 3xW
Ch Hany 3xW D.O.Y
Ch Zila 3xW
Hanibal 1xLG 1xD G.I.S

 

PXXXX KNL'S (BLK) HACKER 2xw R.O.M

Sire: DD & WW'S JUMBO 1xW
Dam: SLAVA MOZIR'S(BLK'S) MARGO
Sex: male
Date of Birth: 2007
Date of Death: 30. 8. 2013
Land of Birth: Belarus
Land of Standing: Belarus
Colour: Black and White
Titles: 2xW ROM
ROM points: 4/4
POR points: 24/15
Tragically died.In our hearts, forever you!!!!
REST IN PEAСE
1X opponent RIP 57 min
2X 1.10h opponent RIP


Very Good Producer Father Of :
CH 3xW FIMA
CH 3xW B.I.S. TANCHIK
CH 3xW SONYA D.O.Y
CH 3xW OSKAR D.O.Y
2xW HOSSE
2xW 1xL HACKERSHA
1xW SARA
1xW HANNA

 

Good gracious!
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=1307

 

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=488192