Overschooling a Dog?

I have read many books and spoken to several old-timers regarding back in the day schooling of dogs. I am sure most of educated owners have also heard and read about how dogs were schooled "back then".

Some historical articles and interviews advise schooling to be a long process such as for example 5, 5, 10, 10, 15, 20, 25 and then the test of tests......

In contrast, I have also heard that some winning kennels only schooled them 2 or 3 times before the final test. The arguments behind both sides are good ones. One stated that the dog would be best served if presented with different styles and methodologies in a control environment. The other felt that since a dog is an animal of habit, a long schooling would only teach a dog that things will stop at a certain time.

In addition, they felt that a dog will do what a dog will do no matter what. In other words, a dog will revert to their instincts given the right circumstances.

If you were living back then, what would have been is your take on the length and method of schooling a canine athlete?

Obviously this thread is for entertainment purposes and in no way means we recommend or endorse anyone doing anything and I do mean anything illegal. The conversation is intended to educate as well as to tickle the brain.

YIB,


Rocky H. Balboa

 

Hope this helps..

Heres a article written about Game testing your dog.


"In my opinion, the Game Test is a very important part of breeding and matching gamedogs. I think that the purpose of the game test is misunderstood by many dogmen. I also think that a lot of poor advice has been written about game testing.

The stories that dogmen tell about the way they game test their dogs are often exaggerations or lies. I am going to write about, why I believe dogs should be game tested and how I would test them. If you don't agree with what I have to say on the subject, feel free to skip this article or write your own. I am writing my opinion of the truth, whether it makes the reader happy or conforms to popular belief or not. I don't really care if some readers disagree with me or not, but if my advice is helpful to anyone, then I would be happy about that.

I came to my opinions from twenty years experience of running a yard of sixty dogs. I won't change my opinions for you and I don't expect any experienced dogman to change his opinions for me. This article is for those that are still learning and want to read an opinion that is somewhat different than those they may have read before.

What is a Game Test?

I would describe a game test as a hard roll for your dog, usually, but not always thirty minutes or longer. It is a roll in which your dog will get hurt, tired and getting the worst of the fight. This game test will tell you what your dog will do when he is tired and being handled by his opponent. Does he have the gameness to keep trying to win against a stronger dog, when he's tired and on the bottom most of the time? How does he act in his corner? How does he scratch into a dog that's getting the best of him? The game test will answer all of these questions and also tell you about your dogs stamina and fighting abilities. A game test should never be against an opponent of the opposite sex. To make sure that your dog gets the most out of the roll, their opponent should be several pounds heavier, but do not overdo this!

Why should you game test a dog?

One reason to game test a dog is to see if they are worth a bet in a match. I think that the better fighter a dog is, then the less game testing they require. For instance, if you have a dog that easily handles dogs of his own size in rolls, he would probably handle his opponents in a match as well. What is the point in half killing a dog like this in a game test? He probably won't need extreme gameness to win his match, because he will be the top dog most of the time. A dog without much fighting ability will probably have to come from behind if he is going to win. I would test this type of dog somewhat harder before betting on him, because you must depend on his gameness and stamina to win a match.

The other reason for game testing a dog, would be if you were going to use the dog for breeding. Any male or female I use for breeding purposes must have passed a reasonable game test to demonstrate their gameness, stamina or ability. If they could not pass this test, then I would not use them for breeding purposes, no matter how well bred they might have been.

How old should your dog be when you Game Test them?

I think a dog should be at least two years old and mentally ready for a game test. They should be fully started and have been rolled at least four times. Some slow starters are nowhere near ready at two years old and you must go by the way they act and not their actual age. Your dog should be in perfect health, because the test will put a strain on their heart and system. I don't condition a dog for a game test, but they should be lean and healthy, but not conditioned as for a match.

One of the reasons I game test a dog is to see how they act when they are tired. If they are conditioned it will take longer before they are tired, forcing the test to take longer and your dog to take more punishment. I also use these tests to see how much natural 'air' the dog has and it hard to tell this when you have worked them for six weeks. I try to roll the dog that I'm testing into a bigger dog that wrestles well, but doesn't bite hard. I believe that most dogs will quit, because they are tired and on the bottom, not from being bitten hard. The idea is to test the dogs gameness, not to break its bones. I also try to avoid rolling them into a dog that fights in the mouth, so that they won't lose any teeth.

You should always be in control, remember this is a roll not a match. Have an idea of how you are going to test your dog. Pick an opponent of the same sex, that is about five pounds larger, a strong wrestler, but not a hard biter. This dog should outfight yours, without cutting them up or breaking any of their bones. Make sure to have a watch on, don't guess at the time, know how long the roll has lasted. The game test is to find out if your dog is reasonably game. You must use some imagination and make an educated guess as to their gameness, by the way they act during a reasonable game test. If you insist on knowing for sure whether your dog is dead game, or not, then you will probably end up killing him. I can truthfully promise anyone, that a dead dog makes a poor dog for future matches. A dead dog does not make much of a stud or brood either.

Many game dogs are killed each year in game tests by dogmen that don't know what they are doing. The story is always the same, "Gee!, he was the gamest, toughest, best dog I ever saw; too bad we took him a little bit too far in his game test, now he's dead..." Any fool can roll a game dog to death, it is up to you not to take him too far. I can watch a dog in a hard thirty minute roll and know about game they are. Sometimes I am confident in a dogs gameness after watching him roll for only fifteen minutes. I have the experience and the ability to know a dog is deep game without taking him to deaths door. I have learned what to look for. I have used my method of judging a dogs gameness from a medium hard roll and I have almost never been wrong. Yes!, a couple of times a dog that I'd thought to be dead game did quit in a long, hard match, but 98% of the time my judgement of a dogs gameness has been correct. This may seem like bragging on my part, but I do have the ability to spot a game dog, without half killing them in a roll and I do know other dogmen that have this ability.

I also know other experienced dogmen, who cannot tell if a dog is game unless they see the dog take his death game. If you don't have the experience or ability to tell if a dog is game during a reasonably hard roll, then I suggest you have a trusted friend, who does have this gift, with you when you game test your dogs.

 

Here are some of the things I look for when I'm testing a dog for gameness:

1. A game dog always thinks he's winning even when he's losing. He enjoys the fight and has a confident look on his face. He always keeps trying to win.

2. When a game dog is taken to his corner, there's no doubt that he's going to scratch. He is always looking at his opponent and trying to get at him.

3. He scratches straight and hard, without hesitation.

4. He will stay in holds if he can

I breed and match dogs under the Cajun Rules. The Cajun rules is a scratching contest and scratching is the name of the game. A dog can make every 'bad move' in the book. He can turn, yelp, cry, drop his tail and put the hair up on his back, but if he makes his scratches in time, he can win the match. On the other hand, your dog can fight like an ace, throw his opponent all over the pit and cut him up, but if he fails to scratch, then you lose. I have seen many fight end up with the winner being a beaten up mess and the loser with hardly a scratch on him. Why?, because the beat up dog made his scratch and the other did not. Your dog can have all the ability in the world and be a mile ahead, but if he doesn't scratch, then you lose! This is why, the way in which my dogs act in the corner, between scratches and the way he goes across on his scratches, is so important to me. If he hesitates to bite the other dog when he gets there, then I lose confidence in the dog. Hesitation on the scratch or slow scratching is just a step away from not scratching at all. When I have the pleasure of watching a truly game dog in action for thirty minutes or so, and then see him screaming and struggling to get back to the opponent, at the end of a roll, I feel in my bones, that he is game.

 

Matching a dog is always a gamble anyway. No test that you can give a dog will guarantee that he will win his match. The idea is to find out if he is reasonably game, without 'rolling' the life out of him. This is no joke!! I have seen great dogs ruined by unbelievable game tests. These dogs passed their tests, but they were never near as good after the tests as they were before it. I have noticed in rolls and matches, that dogs usually got hurt when they could no longer fight back. As long as they were able to push for a hold they usually didn't get hurt too bad, even when they were badly outfought. But, when a dog could only lay there and take it, the other dog could push into the bites and shake out his holds. It's like the boxer that's been stunned by a hard punch and can't keep his hands up to block or punch back. The other boxer can now hit him clean and with full force. The hurt fighter cannot block the punches or roll with them, so he takes it full force, blow after blow and can be seriously hurt.

It's the same thing with a dog that's too tired to fight back, he can be badly injured. Watch the game test closely and if your dog gets so tired that he can't fight back, you should stop it right then. Scratch your dog and call it a day. If you are an inexperienced dogman and have a more experienced dogman helping you to test your dog, then make sure that he has your best interests in mind. After all, he didn't buy you dog or raise it from a pup. He has nothing invested in your dog, and unless he is really your friend, it's nothing to him if your dog is ruined.

When I was first starting in the dog game, I had a so-called friend 'help' me test my dogs. This man had much more experience than I did, so I listened to his advice. Every time I tested a dog, he would tell me to roll it harder or to bring in a second dog on the one I was testing. Even when I was satisfied that the dog I was testing was game, he would try and get me to keep the test going. Then it dawned on me, that when this man tested his own dogs, he didn't roll them for that long or that hard. It was only when MY dogs were tested, that he encouraged such long. hard tests. He was not my friend and he only wanted me to ruin my own dogs, so that he could sell me some of his own 'game' dogs.

I believe that some of the game tests suggested by some well known books are far too hard. The Armitage book "Thirty Years with Fighting Dogs" has a severe game test that Mr Armitage recommends. He says you should use two rough, hard-biting dogs, much larger than your own dog. He says to roll your dog for twenty minutes with the first big, rough dog and then immediately put the second dog on him for another twenty minutes. He says that if your dog will scratch after that, then he's worth a bet. I agree that a dog which lived through that and scratched, would be worth a bet, if you ever got him healed up. If you tried that Armitage test with todays dogs, you'll kill the dog you're testing more often than not.

I have seen two dogs used to test one dog many times. I personally don't think it's a good idea. If your dog has been fighting with the first for twenty minutes or more, he will usually be too tired to stay with a fresh dog. The second dog will give him a beating much worse than he would take in a match. He only has to fight one dog for money, so why use two dogs for a test? Some dogs that would be dead game to one dog will get confused and quit against a number of different dogs in a row. If you pick the right opponent for your dog to roll with, then one dog is all it takes to test your dog. Test your dog once only to your satisfaction. Many times I have seen dog men roll their dogs very hard. When the roll is over, they think that he's game, but they're still not sure. So two or three months later they roll him hard all over again. I've heard of some dogs being tested four or five times over. This is crazy! Test your dog one time only and never test him again. A game test is harder on a dog than are most matches. The dogs that are tested four times could have won four matches, but by the time his stupid owner finally gets up the courage to match him, He's all used up from game tests and his chances of winning are decreased.

Test your dog the same way, regardless of their breeding. Many dog men will test a dog to within an inch of its life, if it's breeding is different to their main line. They 'baby' the dogs of their own bloodlines and look the other way or make excuses if they look bad. School them all correctly, give them all a reasonably hard test and let the chips fall where they may. A well known dog man is famous for the insane game tests he puts dogs of other bloodlines through. He is out to stop the dog and prove that this line is not as good as his 'family' line. He rolls the dog he wants to stop very hard and then the next day, when the dog is still too sore and swollen to get out of his doghouse, rolls him hard again. He continues to roll the dog hard everyday, until it quits and then says he knew it was a cur all the time. This only proves that any fool can quit any dog that has hair on it, if that's what he wants to do. This guys own bloodline, his family, are not game dogs, but he babies them in their rolls. His dogs wouldn't take 1/10th of the punishment he hands out to dogs of other bloodlines. Some dog men, although not as extreme as this guy. do tend to test other lines much harder than their own.

I believe many dog men flat out lie about how hard they test their own dogs. After all, you weren't there when they tested their dogs so you have to take their word for it. If one dog man is saying he rolled his dog into a five pound bigger dog for thirty minutes, then the next dog man has to top him. He says he rolled his dog with a ten pound bigger dog for an hour. Then another dog man comes along with the story of using three different dogs on his dog for an hour and thirty minutes. The harder the game tests are in these stories (lies), the gamer it's supposed to make their dogs look.

Many times I hear of a dog that has been through an unbelievable game test, never made a bad move and scratched like a rocket. This dog has been with three or four rough ones, off the chain for almost two hours. Then this same dog is matched and he quits in less than an hour after taking very little punishment. How could this happen? Simple! The dog was never tested that hard. The game test was a Bulls**t story. I have been at some game tests and seen what really happened and then heard about the same test some time later. The test that I hear about is absolutely nothing like the test I witnessed.

Let's say a guy is testing his dog with his fellow dog men and drinking buddies. They're all a bit high, but they check their watches when they start the test. The dog rolls with the first dog for maybe fifteen minutes. Then, to make the test a real good one, he has one of his friends go home and get another dog. It takes twenty minutes to get back with the second dog, during which time his own dog has had a good rest. Then he rolls his dog into the second dog for ten minutes and his dog scratches. Then to make sure that no-one can doubt his dogs gameness, he has another friend go and get a third dog. It takes another twenty-five minutes for this third dog to get back. His dog goes another five minutes against the third dog and scratches again. The owner checks his watch and sees that one hour and ten minutes has passed. "WOW"!! he says. Over an hour and ten minutes with three dogs in a row; can anybody doubt the gameness of his dog? He has taken a rather mild test and turned it into something it was not. His dog never went anymore than fifteen minutes with any one dog and got plenty of rest between each new dog. So!, don't believe everything you hear about how game dogs are tested. Most of it is Bull. If you roll a lean, healthy dog off the chain into a slightly bigger dog for thirty to forty minutes, you should know plenty about his gameness, if you know what to look for. If you are careful, you can learn about his gameness without taking too much out of him. Then you can match a fresh dog with all his teeth.

Many of the dogs from my yard have proven their gameness for my customers in two, three and four hour matches. I have never found it necessary to roll a dog for more than forty-five minutes or to use more than one dog against him. If you plan to test a dog that's over six years old, please remember that they can't be tested as hard as a youngster without putting their health in danger. "

Written By the Millmaker

 

Now with that being said... I think one should use or tweak what was working for his/her mentor

 

CLK, I thank you for your contribution but game testing IS NOT the topic or subject matter. The conversation/debate is between short or long schooling of a dog.

Please stick to the intended topic. I would certainly appreciate your contribution however.:o

 

in my opinion if you need to see a dog go 8 times in school to know if hes match quality either you dont know what your doing. or the dog just isnt match caliber.
every time you put your dog in the deep end your taking something out of him... and that one extra schooling might be the difference between having a gr ch and having a 4xw 1xl because he didnt have quite enough left in the tank
...will add what i think is more appropriate but have to goi for now

 

the same way guys like the plumbers,danny B, joe D, would do it(pre76) more or less through rolling to get the bottom line. they got it where it counts or they don't. you may end up culling a lot of dogs but when you find a good one it was hell to beat.

 

IDK but i would think that short & sweet then to the point would work O.K

 

you should only school your dog 3 times but if your unsure then go another 2 times.
this should already prove if he is worthy of being bred as long as he didnt quit.
if you pass schooling but are not sure he can win an official match then at least you know what you have. first dog that comes to mind that passed his schooling but was not match worthy was white's tab.
if you school for a long time then you risk injury but cutting it too short doesnt give the dog experience for an official match

 

My quick answer would be how ever long it took for me to feel that the dog was worth a bet.

 

Interesting thread Rocky.
I think the answer is....it depends.
I feel that like professional fighters, that match dogs are individuals. You wouldn't train two fighters the same way for a fight. Right?
You could (have) found that after a few short rolls that you've got something very talented and see no need to beat the dog up with a long schooling process.
On the other hand, you might see "unpolished talent" that needs instruction in technique. Also, if the introduction process is not frequent and is properly controlled the animal will not associate the schooling with a time limit. I mean, all matches end eventually. Ending with a scratch could have been deemed appropriate.
This is another instance where experience and a good eye makes a big difference with these dogs. You need to have a good enough look to know what you got but not hard enough to waste it. Atleast, thats what I would have thought.

 

i like your answer agk

 

same for u keystone

 

The Millmaker aint tellin no lies :cool:

 

I think the difficulty of schooling should progress. So while its a bit long the roughest part is short and at the end. The beginning is just giving the dog a taste for what he'll be doing and working on technique with an older dog who might not have as much mouth. I'd also try to give him a few different looks from dogs with different techniques. After a few short sessions would come the real 30minute test where I would determine wether or not he's ready for showing.

 

ok if I had a dog and schooling and testing were legal I would first start the dog on on a short little bump maybe 5 min just enough to build his confidence making sure he was injoying himself and always end on a scratch. then working him up to 20 to 30 min with at least 3 different styles of dogs and if he was found to be match worthy I would let the match be his game test . in this make believe world the only exception is with one that just beats everyone down and has talent right from the get go then I just take him out and let the chips fall were they will mainly into my pocket lol

 

I would have to agree with web28, everytime you look at a animal you take a little out.

 

As for a schooling regimen ive heard the old timers say
30 second to minute bump at 20 to 24 mo
5 min roll at 24 mo keeping him ahead the whole time
15 min roll two months later with a decent dog without too much mouth
and a few months later 25-35 min against a good hog with them going to bottom at some point
then hook em and let the match be the real test

at this point i would consider a dog schooled,
Also like others have said each dog is an individual,you might have a high ability animal and in every roll it stays ahead and never takes much damage that one migh be able to go through alot of rolls and still be good for a match... or you might have a low ability game ass bulldog that to win has to take alot of punishment... and they wont bea able to tkae the damage that it takes for them to win and go through a rough schooling process(although an extended school may be neccecary for you to determine they are game enough to win despite low ability)

 

I would have to agree that a few(2-3) small rolls for 10-15 mins with an equally talented dog. Then try two 5-10 min rolls with a rougher, bigger dog. All this done at chain weight. Then If everything is looking good I would then put the dog in a keep and try 1 match test, but with a watchful eye - maybe even throwing in random scatches. If the dog passes this its match time. I think this would take about 1 year to complete, as I would want the dog to heal and be in good health for every test. But hell I am a youngster just making guesses...