Old Family Red

nice video, but what do you think it proves or disproves ?

 

it proves that the technology was here to video and photograph so why is there no video or photographic evidence of working bulldogs ? i doubt the men in that video are well heeled upper class men they are working class men with there dogs at a badger trial what i notice is there are no staffords there . i tought you would of picked up on what i was getting at cromsboss.

 

maybe b/c tis a kerry blue convention, nice find though...

 

I seen this video years ago and I believe it a Ikc run trials for KERRY BLUE TERRIERS, There are written records of dogfights and bull baiting in Ireland using bulldogs...there are no Wheaten terriers or Glenn of Imaal terriers in that video either so does that mean they ware not around either, if it was run by IKC then the breed would have to be one recognized by them and no Pit bull type was recognized at that time

 

i understand that ricky but if the footage is there from that time why is there none from other sources at the time pics or vids of bulldogs ?

 

lol I just wanted to be sure of what you meant lol

do you think one video proves anything ?
is it your theory that there were no staffords in Ireland at this time ?

personally I don't believe that the lack of photograph or video evidence proves that all the staffords had disappeared from Ireland at that time
perhaps there were only 2 or 3 families of stafford left in the country at that time in small numbers
they may have been in Cork, Kerry or Kilkenny

there is no way of knowing, that is the truthful answer

what evidence we do have is that dogs of this type were sent to america at the turn of the century from Ireland, this evidence is from americas history, not ours

if americans had not taken account of the history of the irish dogs been imported at that time, we would all believe today that these dogs came solely from the U.K.
thankfully we have the historical records from american history about the irish dogs influence in america at that time
that alone should be enough evidence to say that these dogs were in Ireland at the time

 

i'm starting to wonder lol.

but it would be nice to have at least some evidence of them being here at that time.

 

if you found that footage keep looking you may find what your after. try checking your local newspaper archives...
on a side note , i can tell you that some lads used to come to my county in England to by staffords to take back to Ireland, in the late 80s early 90s.

 

Most seem to agree that fighting dogs from Ireland, came to America and were used to help in the establishment of the APBT, even if those dogs were not well documented in Ireland. That they were referred to as "Old Family" there is also little doubt.

Furthermore there is no reason to doubt that Lightner's family here in America, owned and bred "Old Family" dogs from the time of around the American Civil War.

What I am unsure of is if dogs in Lightner's family from around the time of the Civil War AND later ... were predominantly "Red Nose" dogs. Nor can I find ANY reference that states J. P. Colby used red nosed dogs in his breeding program, yet surely he must have at some point, even if unknowingly or by happenstance.

Of course there were SOME red nose dogs along the way AND J. P. Colby's black nosed breeding pairs DID ocassionally throw red nosed pups ... one such pup (Topsey) was given to Lightner in the very early 1900's.

It's just that even here in America where dogs/matches/breedings/peds WERE kept and widely deciminated ... I can find little or no mention of articles about famous matches involving red nose dogs before about 1920. I've asked Iron Mike in a couple of threads to point to such articles and thus far, he has not done so ... nor even addressed the issue except with vague undocumented opinion ... while often alluding to the vast store of print media he has in his possession and on his website.

Additionally, early "standards" or descriptive characteristics as stated by the UKC and ADBA (the ADBA didn't have a FORMAL standard until 1976) as well as early magazines and other publications, make no mention of red nose dogs ... only black nose dogs.

Until I can be convinced otherwise, I believe OFRN is an American name for an American strain of bulldog that were bred down from predominantly black nosed dogs imported from Ireland, England and mixed with what was already here and became wildly popular only around the time of the 1920's and later.

If "you" have a strain of red nosed dogs and want to say they are down from "Old Family" and have peds back to Lightner, Hemphill and others ... fine. I just think that it was Lightner, Hemphill and others who "created" the game strain of red nose dogs rather than continuing a specific and single strain of Old Family dogs. Furthermore, I think Lightner, Hemphill and others drew from several imported strains that were collectively known as "Old Family" and imbued their resulting red nose dogs with the myth, mysticism and mystery of an "Old Family Red Nose" moniker.

 

wa about sorrels?

 

I think this is what I believe too, as there is no record of any Irish dogs with red noses sent to the USA, most where white, brindle and white, and red, but never a mention of red noses

 

They would have been closer to a Staffordshire Bull Terrier....from Ireland and England back in the 17th and 18th centuries when bull baiting and dog fighting were big in the British Isles...when Irish immigrants came to America, they would often send back home for one of these Red dogs...the true stock and breed name would probably have to be traced in Ireland...but everything that's happened with the OFRN once in America has been documented and you can find that info online....probably doesn't answer your question, but truth is you'd have to ask an Irish dog man who knows the breeding history of the red dogs of old..

 

White not a tradtional Bulldog color, brindle is. The color of the wild dog.Bulldogs and Hounds came from Mastiffs. Bulldogs was the killer hound.Man you are still hung up on English Bulldog not the original Bulldog which was from Italy and Spain. Do you think Bulldog was native to G.B.? because they weren't.

 

There is no record of bloodlines of bulldogs from Ireland before going to the USA, the USA is the first place where they kept a registry for these dogs, the OFRN is a strain developed in the USA, it is not a Irish strain

 

Yes there is. Right at UKC and pictures. Jim Corcoran's dogs were red, Lightner's dogs were red. It is common knowledge the dogs imported were red.Once again, G.B. is trying to change history and take credit for everything, now even the pit dogs from Ireland. SBT isn't close to being like the dogs from Staffordshire.And no where near as game as Old Family Reds or the strain today known as Old Family Red Nose.

 

Nor is there records of dogs in G.B. There are here in the U.S. of Irish imported dogs.No not just from the registries but from the Irish people who brought them here. Books and Magazines like Police Gazette.Where did you get lost? No one has stated the Old Family Red NOSE was an Irish strain. It has been said it is a strain of the APBT who was heavy in the blood imported from Ireland as a foundation dog for the APBT!

 

See this is my point of taking credit. You couldn't have found an Irishman found dead in G.B. besides buying dogs there. lmao!

 

It has been said before, it will be said again, "Old Family" wasn't a term used, only "Old Family Reds".I have been watching for some time people nowadays trying to use the term in reference to black nose dogs when no where in history has it ever been used or wrote down as such. The fighting dogs imported from Ireland were copper, liver colored red/red nose. Not black and white or anything else.

 

Ya'll need to re-read this part about breeding and why the dogs from Ireland was sought after.As Bob Hemphill wrote in his adds for the world to read and prove wrong about Old Family Red Nose,"Gameness Dogs Ever Bred."Your ancestors in these other countries wouldn't even bat an eye at him or his dogs with any SBT or anything else!

 

not tryin to be smart but PROVE IT ! and not just from writings of the ppl who bred them everyone knows breeders like to talk there dogs up to make them stand out from the next fellas,
post up the articals from the police gazzette , Iron Mike says he has pic's but wont share them and nearly all the old pics i have seen were brindle , white or pied dogs ,