Old Family Red

ahhhhhh hold on! JR. NEVER did a breeding with a straight Red Devil bitch. You have that backwards. He bred a Hemphill blood from DG to The Kid... The bitch off Bug never was bred in CA. She was in FL. Ben was never bred, died DG. In fact I just saw a grand daughter of Buttercup.

 

I'll write this for the last time.I.K. has pictures of dogs who you can clearly tell are red nose imported dogs thou there are black and white pictures (BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE COLOR FILM BACK THEN) and can be argumentative. But living so close to UKC for so many years also allowed access to single registration on dogs going back into the 1800's of dogs were also described as Irish imported red dogs.

 

Who had it heavier than Bob?

NGK

 

C2K we did do a breeding. It was in my garage. The bitch I am referring to was a red devil bitch that AA had bought and put in my care. I don't know if you remember I had asked you(I can't remember if it was thru email or pm) if you had ever sold some dogs to a guy in SF Bay Area back in the early 90's. Well AA & I went to see the pups that he had left for sale. AA bought a female. Long story short we did a breeding and the bitch I think had a litter of 9. For the life of me I misplaced the bitch's pedigree. I know she was straight red devil tho. I also had a male off The Kid & Hera. You are correct the female AA got from you was sent to FL & Ben passed. I miss them dogs. Ben was the walnut cracker. Lol.

 

Heres the peds online of Fly http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=1802

Heres Fly from an old book http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7641/53655642391132096971510.jpg

Is this the same dog? I say they look like completly different dogs and would lean towards the old book as referance appose to a free for all to post site. Now the question is, what color is the nose in the book, lmao.

NGK

 

the question to joe b was a rethorical one
thanks for the info, I apprecite it

 

Thank You C2K ... I thought she was it was pretty obvious by the photo she was red lol And you can even see her light amber eyes in that photo only a blind man couldn't pick that out. The red dogs are undeniable I may be a little biased but to me they are just beautiful. I know you have some people who hate the red dogs and others like Hollingsworth who would only keep red dogs because he thought all black dogs were curs lol. Dog men obviously had their own beliefs about the dogs and bred what they liked but I believe I remember seeing some OFRN in my buck dogs the further back I went so you are right about every modern combat dog having OFRN somewhere back in the ped.

 

NGK that picture is so dark not to mention it's a photocopied photo so some areas are much darker making it difficult to say one way or another... black and white pictures are not always easy to tell and everything back then was in black and white. I am a huge collector of classic films I have some that date back to the late 1800's and you couldn't tell what color dress or suit those actors/actresses had on or what color their eyes were as everything was black and white and all looked the same lol. Charlie Chaplin had Blue eyes but you couldn't see that until his later films when the technology advanced lol.

 

So do you think the online picture and the photocopy are the same dog?

NGK

 

Well first thing one photo is way darker and overly grainy so it's possible they are the same dog I am looking at the structure of the dogs and they have identical front ends look at their feet and elbows and chests they appear to be around the same size. I played around with photo editing to see how they would look side by side. The hard thing with these two dogs is the positioning of the heads in the first shot the dogs head facing forward in the second shot her head is tilted so viewing the head shapes is difficult ... I have seen so many pictures of dogs who looked different depending on how they are positioned in the photos. I obviously can't say for certain but IMO they do favor each other in structure but one photo is extremely dark and grainy which makes it difficult to see the brindle and obvious nose color that you can see in the second picture. It also looks like the picture from the book was taken standing over the dog VS away from the dog. In the pedigree photo the picture is well lightened and I suspect may have been taken later on. IronM says that it's her I have no reason to think he would be lying and if anyone would know about those dogs it would be him so I wouldn't be so quick to say they are different dogs based on the reasons I gave.

 

They even appear to be the same height and the legs look to be dead on those feet are identical the pasterns the first pic she looks a little bloated may be a slight bit heavier but they both have very similar structure IMHO. It appears they have some white on the chest and feet which I can see on the book picture if you look close enough where as it's very obvious on the ped pic.

 

Im interested in What Iron Mike has to say about this as well, and also if he ever saw the dog in different pictures than the 2 I have. I have read 2 seperate descriptions of Fly and both stated that she was a buckskin with black muzzle, white feet and chest. I like the comparison that you have provided Sadie, shows your passion for the breed and the truth. Lets wait on Mike and see what he has to say about this, Thanks.

NGK

 

Thanks NGK I agree I think Iron Mike should be able to provide the best info for this dog.

 

For the experts black nose or red nose?

 

Not an expert but the dog looks red/rednose with white markings.

 

Thats my guess as well, based more on phenotype than color.

NGK

 

Yes, it has been address with AA. The female wasn't bred by I.K., sire and dam was suppose to have been.Way it read it was the gyp off Cassius Clay/Lighting Bug, it wasn't. Yes, we know who it was in S.F., remember that litter was advertised.

 

Here is a pic of the bitch Asia (when she was a pup)that we bred to Zeus & her dam(pic taken at the old Circle Star Theatre parking lot in Redwood City, CA).


Trying to see if ADBA can dig up ped for the bitch.

 

As you seen in Bob Hemphill's adds, often Silver Red was refered to as a buckskin. Or gold as was Corvino's (Tudor's Goldie). At this time color discription wasn't resolved yet. From the pictures on file in Ironline Kennels Photo Albums, the many of Fly of Pamana didn't have a black muzzle.None from the litter off Jerry.Now for the color thing. I guess people really didn't understand Ed Mullins article. This is why it was wrote about all red nose dogs have black nose in their pedigree.OFRN is a strain, from a group of dogs heavy from the imported stock from Ireland.Now we are back to the recessive red nose gene thing again.OFR was bred to other fighting dogs from Europe, those dogs were black or blue nose dogs and created the APBT.When black nose is present, it will be dominent. Meaning most of the pups will be black nose.If dogs are continued to be bred with one black nose the appearence will be such.Once 2 red nose are bred, the black nose appearence is gone until a black nose dog is bred to again.i.e. red nose to a black nose. Female red nose, male black nose. One Irish red, the other is English black nose Stafford.The litter comes out mixed. 2 males in the litter, 1 is black nose, the other is red nose.The black nose is bred to his mother, there will still be black nose pups in the litter. The other son who is a red nose is also bred back to his mother, ALL the pups will be red nsoe. Thou both litters will be 3/4 Irish blood. This is why in the past and today you can find dogs heavy of imported Irish blood with black nose....

 

BTW the female on the left isn't the Fly. It is Corvino's Goldie. The Fly is the dog on the right.