Old Family Red

How about this..DISPROVE IT! I repect your decision to disagree with what has been written for many of years but not once through out this entire thread have you offered one piece of intelligent evidence to disprove what has been written. Lots of credible information has been offered to you through out this thread by folks with decades of experience with this strain and all you have offered in return is "bullshit this" and "prove it". It's good to ask questions but if you disagree with 100+ yr old history maybe step back do some research come back and PROVE IT!

 

Post of the day goes to theWolf

 

Hmmm...I notice quite a bit that the biggest deniers of the facts are those who don't own a dog from this strain...
People want to question what they see and hear...okay. But history has been written and passed on by word of mouth.
The quality of the overall OFRN dogs may be legit, as the breed as a whole is overbred.
But for those of us who know, and own a REAL OFRN dog, need not prove a thing...
From Shipley, Corcoran, Feeley, and the dogs Corvino had, this is proof enough in itself...it is written in history.
And none of these men had the Lightner dogs. Where Lightner got his dogs may never be known...but they were from his family, before the civil war.
They were not the Old Family Reds imported from Ireland.
But for those who own and raise traditional OFRN dogs, we know the truth...

And as theWOLF said, let those who deny the truth PROVE IT!

 

ok !when i say there are no records it doesnt necessarily mean pedigrees there are no old stories of these red or liver red nose dogs from this side of the atlantic but there are old stories of the abilities of the kerry blues and other irish terriers , there are two sides to every story but when it comes to this strain there is only the american side . do you think i havent tried to reserch it and i just come on here to disagree with ppl ?

heres a couple of peds.
APBT ONLINE PEDIGREES can someone point out the little old family dogs in this ped please.

i can find 2 red dogs in this ped but one of there off spring was matched at catchweight and the old family dogs where apparently small 30 ish pounders and smaller ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [67258] :: LIGHTNER'S FANCY

a lot of the stuff in the peds is of the gas house dogs and lloyds pilot ???
maybe im looking at the wrong peds if so could someone post the ones i should be lookin at.

 

In Stratton's Story of the Old Family Reds ... your statement is in conflict with what he writes.

According to Stratton, Old Family Reds was just a strain or one segment of the Old Family bloodlines. So apparently, it has been used and written down as such. Not all "Old Family" dogs were red nosed or even red.

In fact, Stratton further states ...

Notice he said "Beginning". So, the red nose seems to be predominantly an American phenomenon. Most imported Irish Old Family dogs apparently were black nosed.

Story of the Old Family Red Nose Pit Bull

 

Online Pedigrees :: :: SHIPLEY'S PEARLIE NOONAN :: [384158]
heres another one

 

Because someone says something ... doesn't make it the truth. And that goes to BOTH SIDES of this discussion.

Where are the articles concerning famous matches involving red nose dogs before about 1920 or so?
Where is the early registry standards and accepted physical descriptive characteristics that include red nose? Not in the early UKC standards and not in magazines and books concerning the ABPT and written before the 1920's.

For example, "The Fighting Bull Terrier" written in 1914 by Eugene Glass makes NO mention ANYWHERE nor does it include ONE SINGLE PICTURE of a red nosed APBT. You can get that publication in digital format from several sources on the web, including Iron Mike.

I take nothing away from the red nose strains of APBT. In fact, the best dog I've EVER owned was that red nose dog in my avatar. However, I can not find documentation to back up claims that the dogs got off the ships from Ireland as red nosed dogs ... nor do I find documentation that red nosed dogs were foundation dogs of the APBT. What I do find is that the red nosed dogs became wildly popular with dogmen as well as dog peddlers around the 1920's and during the following depression when the public wanted a red nosed dog and peddlers were more than happy to accommodate those wishes in part to make a living and survive the depression. At least that is how it's been explained to me and if someone can prove it wrong ... have at it ... but back it up.

 

I have honored TheWolf, RedGoodbye and Eagle by fully explaining my point of view, understanding as I see it and provided references to prove your statements wrong. In return I would expect respect as well and if you disagree and stand by your statements ... Back it up with sources of fact of your own. Not just condescending lip service.

 

i too have nothing against red dogs sure i have one here now down from andersons tonka ! so its not that i have a hatred for rednose dogs .

 

Where are the articles concerning famous matches involving red nose dogs before about 1920 or so?
Where is the early registry standards and accepted physical descriptive characteristics that include red nose? Not in the early UKC standards and not in magazines and books concerning the ABPT and written before the 1920's.

 

Correction ... that should be "The Sporting Bull Terrier" by Eugene Glass

 

1) Where are the articles concerning famous matches involving red nose dogs before about 1920 or so?

2) Where are early registry standards and accepted physical descriptive characteristics that include red nose? Not in the early UKC standards and not in magazines and books concerning the ABPT and written before the 1920's. For example, "The Sporting Bull Terrier" written by Eugene Glass and published in 1914 makes no mention of red nose dogs nor is one pictured.

3) Where are the peds/articles/books that prove red nose dogs were APBT foundation dogs? All I can find in early accounts is that red nose pups were initially a "fluke" or happenstance from the breeding of black nosed dogs who were not intentionally bred to produce red nose pups. The only APBT foundation dogs I find are all black nose ... of which, red nose was a resulting strain.

 

But if Stratton says it then it's true??? Lmao.

 

Exactly!......

 

This is a subject I.M. is the authoriry on. I cant see argueing with him on this particular subject. Its akin to argueing eli dogs with Floyd B.

 

well the bloke who sold the dogs is a liar eh ? am talking 1980s not 1880s. its not hard to figure that these wide boys were buying English dogs , takijng them home breeding with them and then selling the pups back across the water as Irish staffords with made up papers.

 

Hello C2K.
THE BULL DOG is a type of MASTIFF, which is a type of ALAUNT which is a type of HOUND. Which is both described & depicted in THE MASTER OF GAME from the 1400s as is its WHITE COLOUR.
In 1556 prince Philip the second of SPAIN imported GREAT ENGLISH DOGS not the other way round.
The first reference to the BULL DOG distinct from the MASTIFF, is in 1632 by an ENGLISH MAN asking for a 2 to be sent to him in SPAIN not the other way round.
There are depictions from the ELIZABETHAN period of WHITE BULL DOGS as there are throughout the 18TH & 19TH century.
The first ever standard drawn up for THE BULL DOG is the PHILO KUON ..which describes the WHITE colouration.
There are many MASTIFFS across Europe , and the only ones hung up on anything is you and mike.
TRUE BULL DOGS were described as 30odd - 40 odd pounds capable of seizing , pulling, pinning, and throwing a full grown bull on its side ……none of those you wish to reference come close……there is only one true BULL DOG it does not require a prefix.
In the words of a BLACK COUNTRY tradition they were bred to go
1 for a BULL
2 for a BOAR
3 for a BEAR
4 for a LION

“ that island of ENGLAND breeds very valiant creatures, their mastiffs are of unmatchable courage”
William Shakespeare.:wagtail:

 

Irish dogs ? Irish imports ? Old Family Red ?

Jennings Bowler won 1886
Waterford Jack
Corcoran's Biddy
Corcoran's Terry born 1896 (Waterford Jack x Corcoran's Biddy)
Corcoran's Greenhorn
Irish John
Rafferty
Bob The Fool (Galligan's Bob/McGough's Bob)
Jack Burke's Spring
McCaffrey's Spring from Glasgow 1857
Dugan's Pat around 1918
Quigg's Boxer 1893-1896
Gas House Dog born early 1870s
Racine's Ginger
Galvin's Pup
...
Stories ? Peds ? Pics ?

Lightner disposed his red nose dogs around 1917-1918
OFRN since 1927

Feeley dogs for sure are not pure OFR. It's part OFR. Cross dogs.
Now Lightner dogs got no Irish background at all anymore ?

Is there more info available about them Irish Klans beside of the dogs ?
If it was private business to them, then they didn't let out infos about their dogs. Some may have seen them win or loose, but that's all the info they could get about them. These dogs and Klans obviously lost a good bit of their privacy in the states.
People just took advantage of the circumstances. Dogmen did and peddler did as well.
That most probably is the beginning of the end for those 'pure' OFRs. But they improved the breed of the pitdog at that time of crossing. Could it be that the English Bull Dog x Terrier crosses, Half and Half, most of the time went back to the Bull Dog style after years of breeding ? Same as today. Mutts, Hippos, Staffs ...Maybe that's why the English folks were always trying on new crosses mainly to Terrier dogs back in those days. They needed them crosses. I'm not saying they all did. The original Half and Half may have survived for some time in a 'pure' form (Lloyd's Pilot).

 

I just spat my coffee out on computer reading this.. Great post wolf.. priceless..

 

I always enjoy reading your posts Joe. You have an wonderful way of putting things on here. I try but often my typings are hard for me to even understand. Well done .


yis - thats for Gaelic - slawn-cheh