Okay question i have about gameness and gamedogs...

I have been going around and around on this topic on another board. And i want to know what you guys think.


1. Is a game dog by bull-baiting or hog hunting standards; equivelantly game by [] standards?

2. when moving from animal baiting to matching do you think that the perception of what was considered game changed?

well start there and expand on it from this point.

 

Gameness in a dog is the ability to continue on with it's task regardless of injury and fatigue. I believe you can measure a dog's gameness in both situations, whether it be animal baiting or in the [], but I think you and your dog would have a much safer and accurate experience in the go ring.

 

it's been discussed a hundred times. try using the search feature. no it's not the same. not even close. putting a dog on a hog or a bull does NOT make it game.

 

1.I'm sorry I don't understand your first question. can you please restate it.

2.No, if a dog is game it's game, first you have to understand the definition of being game, also original bulldogs were usualy used for bull baiting.

 

Simply putting a dog on a hog definately does not make it game. If the hog is too much for the dog and the dog becomes either injured or drastically fatigued, but no matter what continues to pursue it's task at hand, then it can be deemed game.

 

let me go a little deeper and it will explain my question better.

My thinking is that at the time of bullbaiting they thought that they were proving the dogs as game, which is why they used it as a way of performance breeding, and while I feel they definately produced some game dogs, they were also letting a lot of hard curs slip through too. That is not to say that it doesnt take a really hard dog to bullbait or catch a hog but for me the bottom line is there are a lot of breeds and mixed breeds that do a damn good job of it. so its cant be a game dog test (this is my personal opinion).

I believe that when baiting was outlawed and they moved to matching the caliber of dog they produced was far superior to the animal that was produced by baiting standards. I basically want to know if you think that wasy as well or if you feel that they stayed the same.

Let me reiterate; I am not saying that the definition or the trait of gameness changed, I am saying that people perception of what was deemed a show of gameness did.

i think that is most shown to me by the reluctancy from some dogmen to give up matching... but you seldom if ever see anything about baiting. if it produced a game dog it would go on, or if boar baiting would do it thats still legal in many states they would do that and not face felony charges... again this is in my mind.

does that make more sense?

 

I have to disagree.

An injured dog might continue to go after it's prey from being prey driven. If the hog ain't dishin out to the dog what it's taking, then you can't by any means say the dog is "game."

edit - Diesel - you answered your second question with your post above the caliber and expectations changed.

 

Well that's why I said if the hog is too much for the dog. A large hog can easily kill a single APBT. If I had seen a dog go into a hog and the hog was slinging the dog around like a rag doll by the tusks and the dog was still going at it like nothing happened, it'd be game to me. If that same dog can handle punishment from a hog and survive, it can definately do it's thing in the ring.

BTW: Alot of dogs are prey driven. Even a wolf will back off a bigger prey if the wolf becomes injured or unable to finish the job or if the prey has the upper hand. A game to the core APBT will not quit.

 

Them hogs around here put out plenty. Many a dog have had to have their guts pushed back into their bellies and stapled up!! So much so that only a fool would take one out with out having these tools in their possesion. So in many cases, the hog puts out MORE than the dog is dishing out. Once the dog learns WHERE to catch the hog, it is a different story.

 

Yes there is a difference and it is in the level of the gameness!

The bulls and bears where forced to stay and fight, but they didn't want to and they would have ran for their lives if they could have. However, it did take a level of gameness and courage for a dog to get in their and do what they did, but it wasn't the highest level of gameness that could be reached in the dog. The box is the ultimate measure of gameness because you are pitting two animals with gameness against one another. In concept neither animal is looking to run and it wants to be there. If it doesn't than it fails to reach the level of gameness that is desired! The highest level of gameness cannot be reached in any other way, period!

 

Answer to :
1. Is a game dog by bull-baiting or hog hunting standards; equivelantly game by [] standards?

I would say NO because:

Pit bulls will generally excel in activities that require sustained
determination and that test their bodies' ability to endure pain and
exhaustion to an extreme. But the fact is that there are very few
activities that will test a dog's gameness to its limits, or that will
provide a basis for comparing one dog's degree of gameness to
another's. For example, wild boar hunting, in spite of the high level
of risk to the dog involved, doesn't really test the limits of a dog's
gameness. The tangle between boar and dog is fast, furious, and
generally quite short (compared with a pit contest). Athletic ability,
agility, explosive power, strength of bite, and smarts are of a higher
priority here than gameness, which never really has a chance to come
into play in so brief an encounter. The dog will either take the boar
down or be killed before the depth of his gameness can make much of a
difference. Several larger breeds of dogs--American Bulldogs and
Argentine Dogos--seem to be at least equally adept at boar hunting as
pit bulls. But this doesn't make them as game as pit bulls.

Just because a game disposition will aid a dog in excelling at many
different activities--such as agility competition, flyball races,
tree-climbing, etc.--doesn't mean that these activities are
sufficient tests for gameness. Gameness is multi-dimensional; the
above activities do not stress all of these dimensions simultaneously
to their extreme limits .

Answer to
2. when moving from animal baiting to matching do you think that the perception of what was considered game changed?

No as well, I think that it became very obvious to those that matched their dogs the depths of what we now call GAME, perhaps it was even defined at that point in time as the test for it showed the extent of the essence of this dog, which was probably not seen in bull baiting.

JMO

 

A gamedog is the only living animal that i know of that gets pleasure out of fighting, if u match a gamedog against any other living creature its nothing more than cruelty to the other creature even if that animal puts out a hell of a whipping it will eventually quit when the heat is on. Now a gamedog on the other hand has been known to fight to the death and be happy to do it, just because its getting its ass kicked by a bull or a bear doesn't mean its being properly game tested, shoot u can take a huge mastif type dog and put it against a smaller gamebred apbt and sure the apbt will get beat down for a little while but eventually it will gain the upper hand just like with bull baiting, the bull eventually gives up so at that point u have a dog mauling a bull for fun while the bull is trying to run for its life, that in my eyes is not even close to being game tested. Now u throw two gamedogs together that are both willing to go till the end and that right there sir is the definition of game

 

I think alot of people are speaking without having any first hand knowledge or even have seen dogs go into a hog or bear or any other game.

A fully mature, 800 lb. hog with full tusks can definately put a dog at a disadvantage in about 2.5 seconds. Most dogs after receiving a harmful injury will back off and run to safety, knowing it is unmatched for that hog. A 'game' dog would not feel the pain nor injury and would continue head on with that hog till either the hog gives or the hog kills the dog, making it dead game.

True, matching two game dogs is far by the most successful, safest and accurate way to measure a dog's gameness, but never underestimate a large animal hunt. A bear, wildcat, hog or wild bull will definately give you an idea of which dog is a cur and which one you will be taking with you next time.

 

I agree with you. By the definition of the term even, "matching", ie making all things equal the traditional test was the best way to isolate the trait of game and set up the best circumstances for stressing all of the dimensions of the trait. I fully respect and never underestimate the determination and ability of a hog dog...for sure!!!!

 

thats true it will give u an idea if the dog has a level of gameness in him but remember that hog will quit, wild animals have the instinct to survive so there's no way a hog will keep fighting if it starts getting a whipping from the bulldog and once that happens u have nothing more than an attack its no longer a fight because both animals are not willingly participating

 

For bull-baiting you need a game dog. To catch and hold a boar you need a game dog. If your dog should defeat another maybe bigger and stronger dog he has to be game. If you breed and select only for catch wild animals you will get game dogs. If you select dogs for dogfight you will get game dogs. The point is with wich kind of selection you get the gamest dogs....?In a fight against a bull or a bear or a boar a dog can die in short order...game or not. Many times the gamest dogs die because they stay and dont give up and the very big and strong wild animal kills them. Thats not good for the gameness -breeding. In a dogfight between for example two 45 pound dogs you have in most cases a long or very long fight-distance. The whole time you can watch the dogs very close and see how they act under pressure. From my point of view it is extreme important to see how they act if they are exhausted.Exhaustion checks the Gameness best of all, better than physical injuries. Injuries are hardly perceived in the fight the feeling of the exhaustion, however, already. Bigger dogs like for example tosas do not scratch because they are exhausted. For me is best gameness proof if a dog on ramshackle legs scratches . For me is the best form of gameness-breeding the dogfight-selection because the risk to lose a game one is not as big as for example on a bull, boar or bear...ithe fight is a controlled pound for pound fight and both handler have the chance to pick a dog up if needed. Nothing produces gamer than the breeding for fair pound for pound dogfight.

 

I want to thank everyone so far for thier input. I am learning some different takes on this subject, and for those that agree I am really liking the various reasoning behind your answers. this is really good stuff.


Thanks again.

 

As you all have said the hog hunt is not an even match...the dogs will bring the prey down, or they will not. The fact that the dogs will go in a try to do this job speaks to their drive, the fact they will try to continue to do this job attempts to test their endurance while being at grave risk, but so many of the parameters are scattered -- multiple dogs, uneven opponents...I would say it is hard to isolate and then test for game. This hunt is not designed to test for game, it is designed to get the prey.

In the traditional match, the opponents were physically even, the environment was designed to eliminate outside influences, the dogs only had to concentrate on one another.....

 

Right and that needs concentrationability .......

 

LOL....I have seen a couple little rat dogs that were drive enough to go after an APBT, but it didn't end too well for em, same with hunting dogs and a bear. Hunting dogs gain experience through multiple hunts, provided they last long enough to learn from mistakes and the other experienced dogs. Many a hunting dog that have enough drive to go head into a boar find themselves dead. Good thread though, lots of good replies........ nice idea Deisel