Muscle Physiology and Feeding the Performance/Working Dog

The point is they show anaerobic and aerobic intensity and range of motion superior to sprints to condition for the physiological demands of a contest.

 

Its not name calling when its true slim12,when you state you want me to post scientific research on pit bull dogs in fight, and that you doubt i will be able to do so, as a challenge, to rest your believe on,when you know no specific science exists and any i produce from personal record is to rat myself out,that makes you a dry snitch.

Im not interested in going round and round the mullberry bush on logical fallacies that have zero to do with understanding phisiology and feeding the working dog,its 2014,im not a English scientist with pit bull dogs and microscopes on the go in preparation for dog fights,pit bull type dog ownership has been illegal here for 23years and dog fighting illegal for 179 years.

I want you or anyone to refute what i post and insist upon it to increase truth and understanding of the thread topic,i dont insist you or anyone must refute anything, but you took it on yourself to refer to science as kool aid,non applicable,cookie cutter,copy and pace,and now you insist i prove a relationship with a dog to you, which are all ad hominem attacks and logical fallacies.

Read any human science and you will see its based on animal science and shared physiology, which is why we keep animals in laboratories and have tested and measured physiology and biology to the point we know its general principles applicable between all humans and animals and those that arent.If you wish to point out anything ive posted or suggested or discussed that is non applicable to canines and is based on human science,please do,to suggest its non applicable without a shred of evidence makes your points more logical fallacy.

Their doesnt need to be specific scientific information on competing pit bull dogs for you to use the science known applicable to pit bull dogs and to suggest or imply the pit bull dog has some hidden variable that stumps known science or makes it non applicable with out evidence is a form of logical fallacy so you dont have a position to defend and i dont have any need to address or refute it.

I have personal experience on conditioning using both science and traditional keeps far more personal than you will ever have,so your 'copy and paste' statement is again an ad hominem logical fallacy,ill resist the urge to reply in kind and refer to you as the '70s art experience' guy, who i would would rather not receive information on physiology and feeding from.The information i posted isnt from me its from scientific research so again your argument is ad hominem logical fallacy.

You stated you would rather take the advice of past conditioners and i have listed two of the best to show you science in reality from sources you asked for. When it is shown that they conditioned the anaerobic and aerobic system closer to science than you do, you state you dont give a damn, so again your claim that Mayfield and Lemms word carries far more weight than mine when my word against theirs has never been in contention is an ad hominem logical fallacy,whats worse is your the one contesting both Mayfield and Lemms advice which carries far more wieght than yours when you state their would be no 2hrs of work in mayfields keep when his words state far more, and when you state conditioning doesnt have to match or surpass the demands of a contest when Lemms words state the dog has to reach higher Max stress in conditioning than will ever be found in the contest, real simple.

As stated i dont care what you or anyone else does to condition their mutts,all conditioning has to be individualistic and specific,im only interested in understanding its physiology and feeding.

I dont need to post anything i did with dogs im not the thread topic and the science doesnt rest its evidence on me or my experiences, and to ask me to do so is again an ad hominem logical fallacy.

You use high intensity sprints which is High Intensity Training or HIT which has a methodology and a science,you stated you use 10-60sec with a 15 sec recovery,what do you think its peaking when it can only peak anaerobic alactic lactic or aerobic metabolism and the structure of the interval and its recovery dont allow it to,that no science exists stating it can do and all science exists proving it cant,im asking you what evidence exists your methodology isnt inferior to known science and proves its superior to other known methods in improving anaerobic and aerobic capacity for an unlimited time contest, based on a 4,5,or 6 day cycles over 30 odd days of work.

Your ridiculous repetitive reference to microscopes and laboratories is more ad hominem logical fallacy,with nothing to do with the search and discovery of truth in physiology in a working canine.

Its obvious to all with eyes to see you dont know jack shit about conditioning anything,least of all dogs and your entire argument is based on ad homen and logical fallacy, i not only posted more information of physiology in condition than you are ever capable of grasping much less refuting, ive done so with traditional keeps proven superior to anything youve ever done, and i have discussed and both giving a personal opinion when ever it has been asked, unlike you.Truth pokes the holes ive only pointed them out, you chose to post your keep of your own free will and offer it to public scrutiny.

You can rest or continue when ever you like your yet to post anything meaningful that in any way improves understanding of the thread topic or tackles address or answers your own statements that their isnt enough science in game dogs and how does one apply the science known in other canines to game dogs .

Regardless what ever you decide to do you must address two issues in conditioning relevant to the thread topic.

How specifically you apply the essence of science to sporting kinetic chain action, and how you condition metabolism equal or greater than will be found in the contest.

Until you can post anything which addresses the numerous points ive made and these two issues specifically i dont see any point in continuing or addressing any further posts from you on this thread topic if filled with irrelevant off topic ad hominem logical fallacies amounting to inexperienced babble.

 

More ad hominem logical fallacy,your problem is you lack the comprehension to understand what you read.

 

Heres two keeps for you to answer your question,keep my avatar name out of your posts as ive no interest in interacting or feeding a known troll like you, and what ever methodology and keep anyone wishes to use for what ever length of time in conditioning any dog for any sporting purpose, measure the metabolism in conditioning and increase it to equal or greater than demanded in contest and apply science specifically.

Beyond that get your specs on you one eyed truth seeker and reread the thread for my understanding from fiber types, metabolism, types of strength,kinetic chain action and energy systems,their conditioning, planning and peaking,specific to conditioning.

 

Shucks I never meant for this topic to end up with you guys tearing each others throats out. You've both contributed some great information on conditioning. There's a lot of people on here that are learning and NEED to learn this stuff if they're going to be involved with these dogs even if the vast majority of the people won't ever go near the pit and only condition their dogs for shows. The only way to learn is to listen to people that do know, and what they have to say on the subject. Even people that know a lot can still learn from anothers point of view and opinion and from what the other person knows to make themselves better and improve on their knowledge and experience. Its all primarily for the benefit of the dogs in the end, lots of dogs that got stuffed up and hurt during keep by people that don't know what they're doing. Anyway thanks for ya'lls contribution, learned a lot.

 

Slim12,

if you want a normal conversation,have a normal conversation, the measure you give will be returned back to you.Name calling is argument ad hominem, whats written on this thread is their for all to see,who stated what when and why.

You ask at what point did you ever say Mayfield worked his dogs for less than 2hrs.

In post no."146" you stated and i quote;

"And furthermore, when someone says a dog went 6-8-10 hours on a jenny, or hours on a mill, usually that is misleading. During that time it is a walking time, a resting time, a just moving it time, and an all out effort running of the cat mill (or any other mill). Sort of like going to the gym for two hours and deducting the time between sets, the walking from station to station, going for a drink of water. The 2 hour trip to the gym is maybe an hour of actual work. Dogs no different"

In post no."159" you state and i quote;

"I was not there and do not doubt another man's numbers. But I have always questioned the 10-11 hour workouts. I believe it is closer to the analogy I gave about going to the gym for two hours. Between changing stations, a quick drink, changing weights, etc. etc. there is not actually 2 hours of work. I think this is the same with 10-11 hours on the jenny. It may take 10-11 hours to get the desired amount of actual work."

Mayfields actual words from "To win you do it better" and i quote;

" jump your dog up 30 minutes every other day till you get him up to 6 hours."

"When the dog is up to about two hours take the plastic jug and let the rope out so the dog can reach it."

"With his last week of work jumping up to 8 hours or even 10 hours, trying to have your dog tired 5 days in front of his match, and when I say tired I like to see them not wanting to run out of the dog house to meet you."


Ad hominem and logical fallacies against any point or position in an argument is exactly refutation dispute and contention of its merit and worth, if you would like me to list your ad hominem and logical fallacies by post no. and with quotes i will be happy to do so.

I dont disagree a person needs an eye to condition anything,you will see i have specifically agreed with this statement in my previous posts.

Your beliefs are utterly irrelevant as are mine, where discussing physiology and feeding the canine,the truth stated doesnt rest,rely or need your beleif or mine, to make the statement that you think i could or couldnt condition a dog in anything other than paper or online is utterly irrelevant ad hominem,im not trying to condition anyones dogs and im not the thread topic.

If you want specific science of pit bull dogs in fight or think its needed, you will have to go and apply some to satisfy your own desire,it isnt my job to satisfy your requests,nor any need for me to do so.

Ive covered the known science applicable to a pit bull dog in conditioning and in fight physiologically,that has to be addressed by physiological conditioning,the same in greyhounds,weight pull dogs and sled dogs,their isnt any need for specific scientific research,on pit bull dogs with microscopes, or any need for the flapping of white coats for you to apply the known science to your own methodology.

Do you not consider Mayfield or Lemms experience in conditioning pit bull dogs for combat, science or relevant to the thread topic? i have posted and discussed their methodology relative to the latest scientific empirical evidence.

You use high intensity training, so did both Lemm and Mayfield,HIT training has a proven scientific methodology for improving anaerobic and aerobic capacity relative to any other methodology.One of the latest science discoveries is that with 2hrs of HIT work you can condition the VO2Max equal to ten times greater work at a longer lower intensity in results of both anaerobic metabolism and aerobic capacity and insulin sensitivity through High Intensity intervals longer than60sec.Science researchers in the sled dog believe insulin plays a key role in flipping the metabolic switch,to go from carb use to carb preservation and fat use.Science has proven both both High Intensity intervals and longer lower intensity work is the best combination to improve anaerobic metabolism and aerobic capacity.So you can see science supports the conditioning methodology of both Lemm and Mayfield.

Theirs much more to discuss on the issue of physiology and feeding the working dog,and many methodologies applied over the past 100years to condition pit bull dogs for combat.

We are all in the same boat and desire the same things, i dont take online criticism seriously directed towards my online avatar name, or hold grudges,its all sticks and stones and water off a ducks back, i only reply in kind.

 

Kelticwarrior,its all online banter,but i agree with the sentiments of your post.

 

Slim12,the quotes are accurate 'copy and paste' of your own words preserved for all to see and check, you stated specifically that their would be no 2hrs of work in post no "159" and that the work in keep by mayfield would be no different thn your 2hr gym anology in posts "146".

2hrs and more of actual work has proven physiological benefits in both the human and the canine whether you beleive or not.

Of course we ALL must take individual routes to conditioning, science demands it.

The sled dog research states that canines becuase of their unique evolutionary adaption are not only capable of improving efficiency of anaerobic metabolism and aerobic capacity with great effort pulling load for distance over time, they get even better the more they do, so Mayfield wasnt short of the truth.

The problem with shorter high intensity work than 60sec is that you can only train the anaerobic alacitc, anaerobic lactic, and aerobic systems and capacities,which is why olympic amateur boxers with short rounds and contests rely on 30sec intervals of work to condition the anaerobic metabolism and lactic acid tolerance in high intensity kenetic chain action.The game dog doesnt need muscular endurance short as the oly amateur boxer does, it needs muscular endurance medium and long which have a higher aerobic capacity.

 

Thanks slim12,

The 2hr gym analogy is a false analogy.

The X equals amount of work in Mayfield keep,which Mayfield states is 6-11hrs. The Z equates time not working which is time moving between stations.

Mayfield states to have the coon tail work both before and after jug work on the cat mill, and to have the cable run and chain set up for coon tail work yards from the cat mill.

So the equation is X minus Z or 6-11hrs of work minus the recovery to move stations yards way.

Their is no way you can equate 6-11hrs of anaerobic and aerobic work designed to increase anaerobic metabolism, aerobic capacity,and heat regulation,over 6-11hrs on both a cat mill and a coon tail work on a cable and chain set up yards apart, to 2hrs in a gym regardless of the exercises,duration,time not working,or recovery,or any physiological need or benefit in doing so.

Physiologically the work on the cat mill replicates the work of a sled dog.For your analogy to even work, you need to find, account for,deduct and explain a physiological need and benefit for, between 4 and 9hrs of no work(Z) from the total work time(X) which is 6-11hrs, which cant be done from Mayfields keep or from his written instructions.

Heres the problem with the high intensity sprints,they cannot match the specificity of the flurries, so can only give a general physiological benefit.Anaerobic metabolism over ten minutes involves the anaerobic lactic system.

12 and a half minutes of anaerobic lactic metabolism and recovery cannot condition intensity or peak capacity to equal or greater than will be found and demanded in an unlimited time submission contest,against an opponent of equal weight,because its far too short in duration to condition the anaerobic alactic and anaerobic lactic metabolism and aerobic capacity required and demanded in flurry in contest.

 

I don't think he said that 2 hours in gym eqautes to 6-11 hours of work. Just that some of time spent working out will not be actual work due to changing stations and the time involved in doing so.

Sincerely Yours, Cajun

 

CajunBoulette205, you dont think who said 2hrs equates to 6-11hrs of work?

The words are their for all to see, slim12 stated in his own words that he doesnt think their would be 2hrs of actual work and that the 6-11hrs of work in keep is like his 2hrs of intermittent work gym anaology, which it cant be as regardless of intermittent activity in keep Mayfield demands far more than 2hrs of actual work for physiological conditioning and canine physiological science demands far more than 2hrs of actual work to produce the physiological results.

 

Thanks slim12,

What forest and what trees?

If i take away the gym, take away the people, take away the stations,take away the sets, take away the reps, take away the time, im left with intermittent activity in analogy, simple equation with many letters.

Unless you can explain what intermittent activity your referring to on the cat mill in Mayfields keep, you apply the analogy to,and its physiological need and benefit,your analogy is a logical fallacy.

It isnt for me to understand anything in Mayfields keep beyond his literal words, and to understand why from a canine scientific Physiological point of view,which empirical evidence supports Mayfields actual suggestions for work on the cat mill, and explains the physiological need and benefit.

Its all very well making the statement im baffled by equation, when my equations for work and recovery are based on empirical physiological science which is accuracy of a measure and equation in performance, and canine physiological science supports the continuous nature of work on the cat mill, and explains its proven physiological benefit in the canine.

Mayfields states to jump the cat mill work 30min every other day up to 6hrs, which is an adaption every 48hrs,its irrelevant whether the dog starts on the cat mill at high intensity using anaerobic metabolism and drops pace to a walk to rely on aerobic metabolism to complete the work schedule, or uses repetitive high intensity bursts throughout the total work time intermittently with low intensity work, or relies on slower paced aerobic metabolism throughout the total work time,its the total work at an average measure in metabolism over time which is key, as proven by the sled dog research.

The entire point of this discussion on Mayfields keep is because you use high intensity intermittent work which you claim Mayfield used,fine,high intensity intermittent work has a proven methodology and science to compare, if you believe Mayfield used intermittent work on the cat mill over the 2-10hrs of work he listed, fine,the onus is on you to show what, when, how, and why,and show a physiological need and benefit for it to be applied to Mayfields written instructions, which make no mention of intermittent activity on the cat mill in "to win you do it better".


Before you stated 10-60sec of effort followed by a 15 sec recovery was the work and recovery, which would make the 10-60secs of effort each "set" and each movement of the limbs in high intensity sprinting a "rep", you now state the 12 and a half minute block of work is now a set, fine,how many sets do you do and what divides a set?

The flurries in contest produce blood lactate and blood acidosis,and rely on the type 2a fibers to produce long term fatigue resistance, and glycolysis at high intensity with high force out put, relying on type 1 fibers in long term fatigue resistance in contraction, to stabilize the limbs and trunk in performance in wrestling and combat.

10 -60sec of work IS long enough to condition the anaerobic alactic system at high intensity and condition the fast twitch fibers and ATP PC stores,but the 15 sec rest interval isnt long enough for energy store replenishment, which forces the anaerobic lactic system to work, and 10-60sec of work is too short to condition muscular endurance medium or muscular endurance long or the aerobic system, and the nature of the work isnt specific in kinetic chain action.

The animal relies on the anaerobic lactic and aerobic systems to get through a contest,the limiting factors to performance in contest is the type of strength that relies on the anaerobic and aerobic metabolism,which in combat is muscular endurance of an explosive nature(power endurance) which has a high alactic and lactic anaerobic component, and muscular endurance medium and muscular endurance long which have a higher lactic and aerobic component.

Regardless, conditioning has to address the dominant energy systems and limiting factors to performance(types of strength) as specifically as possible.

If the animal relies on the the lactic and aerobic systems to complete the work in conditioning and contest, its relying on the maximum lactate steady state levels and aerobic capacity.

Heres 2 simple questions for you to equate,

1)what is the total time of the maximum steady state level in a canine,how is it measured, how is it conditioned,and why?

2)what is the total time of the aerobic capacity in a canine,how is it measured, how is it conditioned,and why?

If you can answers these two questions, and explain a methodology of applying it specifically in conditioning you will help us all with an interest in canine physiology in the working dog.