Merle

Queen: Got a pedigree for your ASTs? I am very interested in seeing this as in over a decade this is the first time I have heard of merle ASTs. Use the PM feature if you want to.

Frank: Here you go:

Black- Directly connected to a skin condition called follicular dysplasia. Black dogs are also more prone to red mange, an immune deficiency: http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/black-hair-follicular-dysplasia.aspx

Red - More prone to skin infections to include staph infections.

Blue & blue fawn - Directly connected to a disease called "Color Dilution Alopecia" or CDA. CDA is also called "Blue Dog Disease" & so strongly connected to blues & blue fawns that in breeds like the Miniature Pincher has made blues & blue fawns a disqualification & in European Kennel clubs both colors are also DQs in Doberman Pinchers: http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/color_dilution_alopecia.aspx

White or head white - Directly connected to in increased incidence of deafness. http://www.steynmere.com/DALM_DEAFNESS.html

And I did not look at the link again. I did see a blk & tan, but not a chocolate & tan (maybe I missed it). I know I didn't see a blue & tan, nor did I see any ticked dogs of any color, nor did I see any of the 3 variations of saddle back. So my statement still stands - the page is incomplete.

Oh & here's a little fat for you to chew on - did you know the ADBA still registers offspring of merle dogs? They sure do. For example, say I breed my merle male to my black b!tch & get 3 merle pups & 3 black pups. They won't register the merle pups, but they WILL register the black pups - even though their sire is merle! :eek:

BigGame: That has got to be some of the most foolish thing I've seen come out of someone's mouth. In today's day & age with people getting busted left & right you want me to post someone's business on a public MB???? Come on man, get a hold of yourself. I will agree with you that no "big name" dog man has run a merle line that I know of, but I do know small time folks ran it. I knew one fellow (who is out of the dogs) who had a merle dog he called "money maker" b/c as soon as people saw the dog's coat color they'd bet against him (much like blue dogs) Then there is ADBA CH./Ace Polk Dot, as well as Ace Blue Thunder & his son who was points from his Ace, Sampson. So while they're not as plentiful, good merles are there.

mommy2kane: Here's the conformation breakdown itself. Read it. NO WHERE does it say merle is a DQ. It says merle is a "major fault" though http://www.adbadog.com/uploads/conformation%20_%20weightpull%20pic/2008%20conformationBreakdwn.pdf Maybe what you posted as on another page I missed?

Well, I'm going to have to let this go for now.

I want to add Queen, you are really in the wrong place to talk about your dogs. As much as they don't want to admit it, people here are REALLY hung up on color as well as pedigree. Most folks here are merle haters & they'll hate merles no matter what you do. So just love your dogs for what they are & learn to brush off the haters.

I'll be back soon, I'm going to go e-mail the ADBA on this clause they added for 2008.

 

Black hair follicular dysplasia has been reported in the following breeds:

Basset Hound
Bearded Collie
Dachshund
Gordon setter
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Color Dilution Alopecia

The highest incidence is in the blue Doberman Pinscher (93%) and fawn Irish Setter (73%). Other breeds in which color dilution alopecia has been observed include Miniature Schnauzer, Dachshund, Chow Chow, Poodle, Great Dane, Whippet, Yorkshire Terrier, Chihuahua, Italian Greyhound, Saluki and Newfoundland
Jack Russell terrier
Papillon
Pointer
Saluki

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[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetia]THE DALMATIAN DILEMMA[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Helvetia]White Coat Colour and Deafness.[/FONT]
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the weird thing is that non of this pertains to the APBT almost thought you were on to something bring something to the table sbout the dogs we deal with and defects there in

then I will read that and give a rebutal

REMEMBER THE AMERICAN PITBULL TERRIER

 

I guess somewhere along the line I struck you as someone completely out of touch with history, reality and everything else. I apologize.

 

CHOC-tan

RED WITH BLACK TIC MASK

BOTH ON THE COLOR CHART

 

*sigh*

Frank, THIS is a red tick dog (note the red "ticks" all over the body). Some people call a dog like this "freckled."



Another red tick, this time rednosed:


A blue tick


Another blue tick, this time apparently blue nosed:


A black & tan saddle back (saddle backs also come red/rednose with a chocolate saddle & tan with a blue saddle):


Do you see ANY of these type of dogs on the ADBA site? No, you do not. Therefore I stand by my statement - the page you posted is incomplete & thus your implication to Queen is rendered meaningless.

EDIT: Forgot to add - Frank just b/c the page didn't mention our breed specifically, doesn't mean it doesn't apply. Those diseases are COLOR specific, not BREED specific! Ask anyone on this board if blues don't have more skin problems or whites have a higher likely hood to be deaf! Come on man, get with the program!

 

yeah Ive seen some dogs that look like this before not enough to call it a standerd color

maby a rare color

Shoot I dont think rattler rom threw that color into his offspring
at least I havnt seen any

but have you found the defects with our black or red dogs

 

just because a dog has a saddleback DOESNT mean theres some hound anywhere in the genepool. the BADDEST bitch i ever saw looked just like that, and there was NO doubting her being all bulldog in all ways.

 

yeah your right thats why I went back and edited that out cause I seen one and knew he was a full bulldog

had to catch myself mybad

 

I don't have a clue about merle dogs,never personally seen a merle bulldog before so i claim no knowledge on the subject.But this is the part I just don't get is the accusation of these dogs not being pure,I know they were a cross to start with,and some people will claim every APBT has hung papers in it's background.But even if you accept hung papers I'm sure it's still APBT in there.

 

Let me re-post EXACTLY what I posted on page 2.

Major faults: [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Merle color pattern or albinism. (White dog, blue or pink eyes, lacks pigment[/FONT][/FONT])

Not a DQ, just wanted to point out that Merle *was* mentioned.

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So, which that being said - I *did* read it. I specifically said that it was NOT a DQ and that it was listed as a major fault. What exactly are you arguing in my post? It's the exact same thing you said afterwards.

 

Actually, merle AmStaffs seem even less likely.
However, before I go further, I'm going to shoot emails to a few Staffordshire Terrier Club of America folks on the health committee and ask their opinions.

By the way, what happened to the rest of the litter?

 

Here is my problem with the colors and patterns you've mentioned ABK; The genotype may exist in the breed but the phenotype is rarely expressed unless people specifically breed for it... and breeding for looks above performance is wrong in my book. I am not saying a blue dog cant be purebred nor am I saying that ticking, merle or saddle-backs are absolutely impossible in the breed. However, they are very rarely born in working lines or even show lines. They are plentiful in BYB dogs though and that is why they have a bad image among people here.



For example, I have noticed American Bullies to be producing a lot of ticked dogs and occasionally saddle-backs. Honestly, I have considered the possibility of this, along with dwarfism, to be influenced by Basset Hounds. I know that's out there but the theory is intriguing to me lol.



As for the OP, you have to understand where people are coming from. You show us a picture of your dogs, a blue and a blue merle. You say theyre father and son. We dont know it was an accidental breeding... It seems more like you're just another BYB, breeding dogs for color and nothing else. If theyre just pets, hey cool. Go get them fixed and prevent another accident from happening.

 

Frank: just b/c they're not "standard" doesn't mean they're not accepted. All those colors, while little seen are ADBA accepted colors, all of which were not posted on the colors page.

And yes, I have personally known of defects with red & black dogs. I have personally owned 2 red dogs that had skin problems & the vet told me they can be common in red dogs. I owned a black with skin problems, knew a fellow who had a black with red mange & have READ of several blacks who had follicular dysplasia. I have known MANY blues with skin problems among other things.

gh32: How do you "know they were a cross to start with?" I'd like to know b/c thus far everyone has plenty of opinions, but no hard evidence. If you know something I don't please fill me in! PM if needed.


mommy2kane: We read the same thing (major fault). I don't know why I was thinking DQ for. but if we want to get on the subject of faults, improper ear set or tail set or mismatched eye color can be faults too.

CrazyK9: The only saddle backs & ticked dogs I've ever seen were gamebred dogs. So I wouldn't account any of it to outcrosses to bassetts, although I have noticed more ticking in the Gotti dogs lately. Here's are peds for the dogs I posted:

Red tick 1: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=264

Red tick 2: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=66198

Blue tick 1: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=23876

Blue tick 2: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=193267

Saddle back: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=100928

There's another pic of a black & tan saddleback I've seen, he was pure gamebred & bad to the bone. If I ever find his ped again, I will post it.

 

Again Im not saying there arent gamebred dogs with these markings, just that it isnt too common. Im not even going to begin to debate it though because genetics are complicated. Youve got your base colors then youve got your patterns over the whole coat, color difference on each individual hair, random white placement... lol. Ive researched it but have a hard time grasping it all. All I do know is there is no denying that color says a lot about a dog. It may not be right to judge a book by its cover, but we all do.

 

Ok,only reason I mentioned "cross" was at some point in time somebody bred dogs to get the traits they wanted for the box to get the dogs we have today.In my mind I consider the APBT a full blooded animal of it's own breed but for sake of argument I allowed the cross some 100 plus years ago as a theory.Practically all dog breeds we invented by man and had to be crossed at some point in history to get the desired traits.But after a certain amount time,it's no longer considered a cross but it's own breed.As I mentioned earlier I never seen a merle dog in person in my entire life.My comments we're centered entirely on the Queenof2Titans statement of "technically no dog is pure" which would mean no pure APBT's really exist,that statement is 100% wrong.Maybe her dogs aren't pure but mine and alot of other people's are.I personally don't care what she does with her dogs as long as she's happy with them I don't care.Her dogs,her business.She asked about what we thought of blues,so I told her my opinion of blues but as I said never seen a merle before.

 

Of Mase's litter 4 came out merle, 5 came out brindle
**Mase was the only one in his litter that came out merle, he dad was merle and his mom was black with some on her chest, she he carried the brindle gene.

(Our roomate at the time had never owned a pitbull, he couldn't resist...not knowing anything about female dogs either or how they go in heat, he let Mase and her play unsupervised soon noticing they were stuck) TA-DA!


ABK: what is the deal with those "tri-colour" pits?? they look like rottweiler mixes! Also, I thought pits in general were prone to skin problems?
King has the papers, but the bloodline I remember being razor's edge on dam's side and spotted diablo sire's side, I have their #s if you'd like

 

When you were talking about registering a litter I found it contradictory that will register non merle pups only...they would technically carry the recessive allele of merle also!

 

Ok, So I was going to stay out of this post as I don't really care what others breed cause I am not the one that has to feed them. But here you go smart guy, this is a great article about those B&T dogs.

"Hey! That Dawg Don't Look Purebred..."

An explanation of the tan-point pattern sometimes seen in the American Pit Bull Terrier​

by Ed & Chris Faron





[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Just where does the black and tan "Rottweiler looking" pattern come from, and is it a sign that an APBT is not purebred? Since this color pattern pops up more frequently in our bloodline than in some others, we have been asked about this on quite a few occasions. We thought we would take the time to write up a short article explaining this color pattern, how it is inherited, and where it comes from. The tan point pattern is caused by a recessive gene on the Agouti series gene locus, the following are the alleles (variations) that are definitely known to occur in the American Pit Bull Terrier. There are also a couple of other genes on this same locus, but they are most likely not present in this breed, so we will ignore them in this article to try and keep things simple.[/FONT]​

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[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]A 14 week old black & tan APBT puppy. Though unusual-looking, this pattern is a perfectly natural coloration for a Pit Bull.[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]
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Agouti locus alleles present in the APBT[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]A[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Dominant Black: produces a solid color (ie.black, chocolate or blue) *see note below[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]ay[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Dominant Yellow - Produces reds and buckskins[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]at[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Tan-Point (recessive)- produces solid color with tan 'points'[/FONT]​

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*Note: There is strong evidence to suggest that there are either two separate genes causing a solid black coat, or possibly even just one gene that is NOT on the agouti locus, but that is a whole different matter we'll save for another article. If black is in fact not an agouti locus gene then Dominant Yellow should be expressed as Ay instead of ay.

A dog needs to inherit two copies of the tan-point gene to be a black & tan. If a pup inherits one copy of the tan-point gene and one copy of the dominant yellow gene, which causes a red or buckskin coloration, then the dog will be red or buckskin, not black and tan. If the dog inherits one copy of the tan-point gene and one of the dominant black gene, the result will be a solid black dog. Because of the recessive nature of the tan-point gene, it can actually remain hidden in the gene pool for many generations without expressing itself. In the case of our breed (where this is not a common color) this is what often happens, but it is important to realize that when the tan-point pattern does pop up it is not some new color mutation that appeared out of nowhere, but rather the manifestation of a gene that has been present in this breed all throughout the known history of the American Pit Bull Terrier. Though it is impossible to say for sure where the coloration originated, our best guess would be that it came from some sort of terrier blood that was introduced many, many years ago, probably during the early formation of the breed in the British Isles.

Actually, part of the reason the color is uncommon is that there has been a distinct prejudice against it by many people, either because they feel it is not a typical Pit Bull color, or even actually thought it was the result of a mixed breeding. The latter reason shows an ignorance of basic genetic principles, because the gene is recessive, there is no way you could breed a Rottweiler or a Doberman or Manchester Terrier to a Pit Bull and get puppies with the tan-point markings unless the Pit Bull was carrying the tan-point gene too. If in fact the black and tan color was not present in the APBT gene pool, you would have to breed to a dog of another tan-point breed, and then breed two offspring from such a breeding back together to get black & tan dogs, in the first generation you would get no tan-pointed offspring.

The tan point gene does not actually create a black & tan animal, the gene itself does not produce any color but rather a pattern of a solid color with light-colored 'points'. These 'points' always appear in specific places but the actual size and distribution of them is somewhat variable. The exact coloration that is produced by the tan-point gene is dependant on the color genes present at other loci, for instance if the pigmentation is black, the result will be a black & tan, but if the dog's pigmentation is chocolate or blue then the pattern would produce a chocolate & tan or a blue & tan, respectively. A few of the possible tan-point variations seen include the following:

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[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Black & Tan A classic black & tan. This particular dog also has white markings -- the black, tan & white combination is also known as 'tricolor'.[/FONT]​

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[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Chocolate & Tan When the tan-point pattern is coupled with red/red nose (chocolate) the result is chocolate & tan.

[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Black & Buckskin When combined with buckskin instead of red, the pattern creates a pattern of much lighter points; with extremely pale buckskins the coloration might even be mistaken for black & white at first glance.

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White markings are caused by an entirely different set of genes, and appear the same way on a tan-point dog as they would on any other color, if present -- a tan-point dog may even be spotted, in which case the spots would be two different colors depending on whether the spots were over areas where the tan-point pattern was present. Brindling, if the dog is a brindle, will only be seen in the tan points, in fact if the tan-point dog is very heavily brindled then the brindled areas may make the dog appear to be a solid color instead of a tan-point.

(We have a couple of photos of brindled black & tans and brindled chocolate & tans but are still looking for them at this time, we will scan them and add them to this page when we find them.)

Another interesting thing to keep in mind is that the dominant yellow gene does not always mask the tan-point gene entirely; this is known as 'incomplete dominance'. With incomplete dominance, a buckskin or red dog that is carrying the tan-point gene will have the tan-point pattern visible in the form of a pattern of black (or chocolate, or blue) hairs mixed into the coat in the places a tan-point dog would have been solid colored. This is referred to as 'sabling' in most breeds. Here are a couple of examples of sabled APBTs:[/FONT]

 

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]A reddish-buckskin bitch with black sabling. The amount of sabling seen varies from dog to dog, in this case it is quite pronounced, resulting in a mask pattern on the face, etc.[/FONT]


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[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]A red bitch with blue sabling. This is an interesting combination because by carrying both the tan-point and blue genes (both rare) this bitch if bred to a male with the same make-up could possibly produce blue & tan offspring, a color (to the best of our knowledge) previously unheard of in the breed. (The puppy in partial view on the right is a black-sabled red)[/FONT]


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[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]A brindle bitch with black sabling -- the sabling is less noticeable because of the stripes (and also the black mask this bitch has) but the pattern can still be seen, especially in the face area -- note the 'points' over each eye.[/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]


Our own first encounter (besides seeing pictures in various books) with a tan-pointed APBT was a litter we had off a half brother-sister breeding off a son and daughter of our old Bandit dog. Bandit himself never threw a black & tan, because the bitches we were breeding him to (mostly Nigerino, Honeybunch, and Snooty bitches) did not carry the gene. He did throw a fair number of sabled pups, but at that time we were not that familiar with coat color genetics and it never occurred to us that these "dirty buckskins" as we called the color, were caused by the tan-point gene, as we had never seen a tan-pointed APBT firsthand. Then out of Renegade and Maggie came a litter of blacks and brindles -- and one big male marked just like a Rottweiler, except with brindling in the points. We picked him as our keeper because we thought his coloration was a novelty, in fact we named him "Wilside's Devil Dog" (call name Pitweiler) as a joke because of his markings; this attempt at humor would later cause us a bit of aggravation when someone who saw Pitweiler spread a rumor that we had a pet Rottweiler and were crossing it into our APBTS...
Anyway, Pitweiller was the first of numerous black & tans we have had since, plus a few chocolate & tans. Most of them came from doubling up on Bandit in some way or another, except for one breeding to an inbred Ch. Booker T bitch we made with Rapid Roy that resulted in a litter of mostly black & tans. We have also seen tan-pointed pups from several other bloodlines, so while the gene is fairly rare it is probably a lot more common than most people would think. Whether you find the tan-point pattern interesting and appealing, or think it makes a dog look like a "mutt", the fact is it has been a part of our breed for probably well over a century, and will continue to exist.

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TURNER & LOPOSAY'S MOLLY

 

APBT's in general are not known for skin problems the majority of the problems occur in byb bred dogs and blues (which more times than not are of questionable history themselves). So while it is not impossible for any breed of dog to have an issue I would not go as far as to make a blanket statement that it is common in the true APBT. Most dogs with issues in the past simply were removed from breeding stock in one way or another, therefore not passing down any issues that may have risen to future stock. Some of the issues that we are seeing now are the fault of the original breeders though as they are the ones that are responsible for every joe shmoe with a dollar in his pocket owning a bulldog and not being responsible with their breeding programs. You really ought to do your research before you try to bash someone else's stock.