Merle Pit Bulls

Actually I don't find it so absurd. I don't think your argument is valid. In regards to ABs, if the dog is white, lippy and 75+ pounds then most likely it is an AB mix. Your black and brindle color comparison holds no water because apbts have come this way for over 100 years! Were there any turn of the century apbt types that came merle? We are talking about a very rare and specific coloration in the dog world, merle. Not many breeds come merle, Aussie Shepherds, Great Danes, Collies, Catahoula Leopard Dogs, and maybe 5 other less known breeds. Where did the merle come from? Are you really trying to say it's been there all along? Staffy bulls are the forefathers to apbts, ever seen any merle Staffy Bulls here or in England? Personally, I like the looks of merle. Have you ever seen the blue merle "John Wayne" in Stratton's book? Great looking dog, BUT I believe that somewhere down the line, be it 50 years ago or 5 years ago they were crossed with Cats.

 

What breed came first, APBTs or CLDs? I honestly don't know, seeing as I've never dealt much with Cats. But, if APBTs are an older breed, and proof can be found of merle dogs being produced before the CLD breed was established, then isn't that proof enough to know that purebred merle APBTs exist, or at least USED TO?

I believe merle was there from the beginning, as were other fad colors like blue and red. Blue dogs, being a dilute recessive color, weren't seen much until recently. & we all know different breeds are/can be thrown into the mix to achieve a larger size and color. Of course, we also know that their are many purebred blue APBTs.

 

Ok, having not done a lot of genetic research on the apbt and such, I don't know how much I can vouch for this, but here I go.
We all know the blue colour is a dilute black. It is rare for blue to come up in a line that does not breed for blue, but occasionally it does. When the genetics are right, a dilute black (blue) arises. This is rare though. BUT, breed a blue to a blue and you get blues. Breed a neo to a pit that carries blue (don't know if blue is recessive or dominant, so bear with me here) and you get blues. Keep breeding for blues you get blues. So what is the difference with merles. If the genes are right, I think it is completely likely for a dog to come out merle. Rare, but can happen. Take that merle and breed it to a littermate or another merle or dog carrying merle, and you're most likely going to get more merles. Keep breeding for merles and you're going to keep getting merles. OR, you can throw in another breed such as the CLD and it just makes it easier to get merles, and retarded breeders can get more money easier than waiting for a merle to by chance come about with good breeding.
Like I said, I have no experience breeding pits, BUT I do have a lot of experience with breeding rats and rat genetics. The merle colour can, and DOES, come up in rats with a completely non merle line of rats. It is a genetic screw up shall we say that produces a really pretty rat. I have seen it happen. I never bred for merles, and the merle colour is quite rare with rats, but it does show up from time to time and I have rats here in my home to prove it. BUT, like the apbt, the merle gene is dangerous. If you breed to merles together, or two rats carrying the merle gene, the babies will be dead and you have a good chance of losing the mom during her delivery. But with selective breeding, you can safely breed for the merle colour. Also with the merles so often being blue, you get health problems associated with the blue colouring aswell (I have come to the conclusion that blue colour in most species is related to health problems).
So, if genetic screw ups with rats can cause a merle gene, why can't it with other dogs? And you can't exactly breed a rat to a merled mouse or anything to get the merle, it is purely in the genes.
I am in no way saying a lot of the merles out there are not crosses, I just in no way beleive that all merles are mutts. Genes are funny things and anything can happen.

 

Todd:

I'd agree if all merles looked like CLDs! But they don't. The only thing dogs like mine or Raw Dawg's have in common w/ a CLD is color. Physically they are conformation correct APBTs! Remember, Polka Dot is an ADBA conf. CH. & I had an experinced breeder & exhibitor of ADBA CH.s offer to show my boy Trey for me!

Think about it - Polka Dot would have never gotten her ADBA CH. title if she looked like a mix, let alone placed under judges who are old timers in the game. And a exhibitor of ADBA CH.s wouldn't waste their time & money trying to title a dog that looked like a CLD!

As for merle, it can be found in several dog breeds. Here are some of them:

Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog
Atlas Terrier
Australian Shepherd
Beauceron
Border Collie
Catahoula Bulldog
Catahoula Cur
Catahoula Leopard Dog
Cocker Spaniel
Chihuahua
Dachund
Great Dane
Harlequin Pincher
Pomeranian
Pyranean Shepherd
Scotch Collie
Shetland Sheepdog

This of course is an incomplete list.

As to where merle came from in the breed, it could have always been in the breed. Cryptic merles are merles that look like non-merles. This would allow the merle allele to remain hidden in plain sight. Or it could have come via spontanious mutation. I have seen a pup that was a result of this. Then of course there are those that are mixed.

 

I don't believe that all of the top registries made merle a fault because of one breeder. As everyone knows, if you breed two merles together you can get alot of problems. That is more than likely the reason that merle is considered a fault. It is dangerous. If it wasn't a fault, there would be kennels everywhere that would be breeding two merles together with no remorse. In my opinion, your comment concerning one breeder ruining it for other merle breeders is bullshit. If you feel so strongly about it, prove it. As of now, you are spreading your rumors around as fact.
The registries didn't make it a fault because of one breeder. They just saw a potential disaster involving other breeders producing merles (defective dogs). That is why they stopped it. They stopped it before it became an epidemic within the breed.
That breeder did nothing more than bring the defective trait and the possibility that it could cause alot of problems to their attention. That breeder was not the direct cause. The merle gene and the problems associated with it was the direct cause.

Secondly, who gives a rats ass about merles. You obviously take alot of pride in merles, which are genetically flawed and can only hurt the breed. If merles are acceptedly bred, they will eventually end up in the hands of someone that will breed merle to merle and causing alot of defective dogs.
Maybe you should consider focusing on purchasing/breeding dogs that will benefit the breed instead of taking so much time with dogs that are defective.
Anyone that breeds a merle whether it is heterzygous or homozygous, they are not trying to improve the breed. If you want to improve something you don't do something that can cause problems down the road. Even if you bred a merle dog in a manner that won't cause problems directly to that dog, it will leave the door wide open for problems for the breed down the line when that dog passes its defective trait to other dogs.

 

I AGREE 100%

 

Here's a bit of history of the Catahoulas.. seems that leopard dogs were actually one of the first domesticated dogs in north america that were native..

they began registering in 1951 ..but the importation of leopard spotted dogs were happening 150 years earlier...

http://www.catahoulaleopard.com/homepg.htm

So, it is quite possible that merle derived somewhere years ago from someone breeding a apbt with one of these dogs or some of the founding stock with these dogs? who knows. Maybe it has "been around awhile" because way back when, people did NOT keep as acurate records (with execption of say colby) and dogs ran much more freely than they do today. so who knows!

The fact that blue is not banned is because with the true "game bred" dogs blue will pop up from 2 blacks.. and it is even a noted color with the Blue poll (paul) dogs (so was brindle and brindle dogs were deemed to be better than the blue dogs from what Ive read)

In the ADBA's studies, they do not mention how far back they were able to research. Meaning what breeders did they talk to? They certainly couldnt have talked to JP Colby and other founding members if they ever seen or bred a merle..... but could have talked to Louis.. Yes, the merle gene has been in dogs for hundreds and hundreds of years.. who knows..but the true dogmen i have talked to dont think merle is natural in the breed

 

ABK: The point I'm trying to get across is where did this color most likely come from? Spontaneous mutation, pretty unlikely, cryptic merles who have remained hidden for 100+ years? We can most likely say it didn't come from many of the breeds you listed, Beauceron, Cocker Spaniel, Chihuahua, Dachshund, Pomeranian, the shepherds, or the Harlequin Pincher(isn't this breed extinct?). So we're left with 4 breeds(Catahoula Bulldogs and Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldogs are basically the same breed, I've never heard of Catahoula Curs but I bet there not too unlike Catahoula Leopard Dogs) with common ancestors hailing from the same region of the United States. It doesn't take a rocket scientist. Some times the most simple answer is the most logical.
I really enjoyed the pictures of your dogs that you posted. They absolutely look like purebred apbts, and I'm not saying they're crosses. But fixing a desired characteristic so that it will re-occur is not all that hard. Ever hear about the breeder who crossed boxers with Welsh Corgis in an attempt to create natural bob tailed boxers? http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998 issues/oct_bu_98/bobtail.htm It worked! You can't even tell these dogs have Welsh Corgi in them. The fourth generation dogs were registered as purebred! Imagine how this may have occurred many years ago to apbts with Cats.

 

that was a very interesting article. Thanx for posting it

 

Sorry it took so long guys, but I'm back. TGIF!!!

If any of you have gone to my website, you will see in my page on merle in the APBT I have openly stated that no one (including you & me) knows for sure how merle came to be in the pit bull. There are 3 different theories, all of which are outlined in the article.

What muddies the water is there is evidence for all of them. Is spontanous mutation possible? Yes. It is indeed rare, but I have seen a merle pup produced out of two non-merle parents w/ my own eyes. Cryptic merles? I've seen those too. In that case merle would not have remained hidden for 100 years. Under normal circumstances it would be passed on from parent to pup. But one of the funny things about merle is that it needs dark pigment to be seen. So if merle acts on brown you will have red merle, if on black, you will have a blue merle. But if a merle acts on yellow or cream, you will have a dog that is still yellow or cream, even though it is genetically merle! In fact, when you're dealing w/ yellow phase dogs sometimes the only way to tell a dog is merle is by it's eye color! Pit bulls being linebred as they are, a line could have a preponderance of yellow or light colored which would effectively "hide" the presence of the merle allele for generations. Now occasionally heavily marked merles would have popped up, but the cryptics would have been mistaken for non-merles. I have found in my studies of merle in the APBT that cryptics are most often the cause of merles that "popped up out of nowhere." Mixes? Yep. It is a known fact that some hog hunters bred CLDs to APBTs to make good hunters. Could a CLD mix, ABBB or CatBull been bred back into the APBT gene pool? Sure. But it still wouldn't explain the merle pup I saw out of 2 non-merle parents!

There are merles that are mixed (Venom line) as well as merles that are known to be purebred (WYK, Polka Dot, etc.). If you doubt the purity of the merles I mentioned, get off these MBs & contact WYK or Razor Ridge Kennels yourself. They will verify for you the purity of these animals. But somehow I just don’t see that happening, as some of you out there just couldn’t stand the fact that some merles are purebred. Or maybe you just couldn’t stand the fact that you’d be wrong. So instead of investigating the subject, you’ll just stay right in your “happy place” safe & sound & continue to snipe something you know little to nothing about convinced in the fact that you are right.

As for bad breeders producing defective dogs, they indeed could. But it won't destroy the breed. If it did, Mugleston's would have killed the breed long ago & dachunds, a breed in which there are many "double dapples" (homozygous merles) would have been long gone. But they're not. There are breeders of other colors breeding defective dogs (again, ref. Mugleston's) & there will be breeders of merles breeding bad dogs too. You just have to do your homework & watch who you buy from!

As for some of you who say my comments on why the ADBA banned merles is “B.S.” & think I am just speading rumors let me ask – have you had ppl that bought these defective dogs come to you for help? Have you talked to them? Have you talked to the breeder & listened to him outline his “experimental” breedings? Have you read the letters the ADBA sent out stating merles were banned not b/c health reasons, but b/c they couldn’t verify the pedigree of Boham’s Venom? Have you even seen one of these letters? My guess is no. But I have. In fact, I’m willing to bet you know little to nothing about the whole fiasco. But I do. Call it “B.S.” if you want to, but I have seen glimpses of the belly of this beast. You have not.

As for the UKC, I have said it before I will say it yet again – their ban had to do w/ a dog called Resident Evil (Eve). They thought Eve had a hung ped & banned merles shortly thereafter. As for Booker, again most ppl consider him & the AAPBA a joke.

I am not proud of merles. I am proud of dogs. If a dog is a good one I am proud of it, regardless of color. My problem is w/ all the ppl out there who talk blow about merles as a whole but know nothing about them.

I apologize in advance should I seem a little snippy, but it gets a little irritating to hear the same old junk from ppl who know very little about that which they choose to bash.

I think that covers it in a nutshell. I'll read ya'll tomorrow.

 

So has there been any Champions in or out of the ring.

Name a few individual merles that have contributed significatly to the breed.Hell name just one that has improved the breed.

I say they are crosses.Thats my Theory.

Do I have facts.Nope I sure don't.Thats why its a theory.

 

Actually, a theory is defined a "a set of ideas formulated by reasoning from known facts." So you have an opinion, not a theory.

And yes, there have bene titled merles. Try CH./Ace RDK's Polka Dot (red merle) & Ace Faulk's Blue Thunder (blue merle)

There is a 4xw blue merle, but I can't recall her name. There are others who are unreported or OTC.

As for me, I think some are mixed & I think some are pure. The difference is that I have facts.

 

How have they improved the breed?

Well please SHARE the FACTS.

 

Actually, the "facts" I was referring to was about their purity, but if you want to play this game ...

Fact 1: Polka Dot is an ADBA conformation champion. This can be confirmed via the Gazette or by calling ADBA.

Fact 2: Polka Dot is a weight pull Ace. So is Blue Thunder. This can be confirmed by the Gazette or ADBA.

Fact 4: Wentz' Chain Breaker (blue merle) is a few points from his Ace.

There are some who as I said before are winners in other arenas. Others are just tested dogs. If these dogs pass on their traits (correct conf., drive, gameness) they are all improving the breed. But you would rather spew your negativity than admit that wouldn't you?

Oh & as a side note, something was overlooked when the ADBA's merle policy was posted. The first sentence on the whole page is this:

Fact 5: "The merle gene has existed in the history of ADBA registered dogs ..."

Right there the ADBA is acknowledging merle exisiting in the breed. Bash on if you like, but the fact remains that some merles are purebred, whether you like it or not.

 

If you want to keep breeding Merles, be my guest.

 

I think that's great you're working your dogs & think your dogs will be an asset to the gene pool. But your/they're accomplishments does not diminish the accomplishments of others such as RDK or TLK.

As for me, I will try to breed good dogs. If the dog is merle, so be it. You can choose by color if you like, but I prefer to be color blind.

As for the dog you refer to, I did not sell it. I traded it to Eppinette Knls & the only reason I did that to save a dog of ours he had. I gave the papers to Eppinette when he got the dog. If there is any dispute about the papers, take it to him.

 

I don't have a dispute, but I am cooperating in getting it resolved.

 

I hope all goes well. But if you could, please keep me out of it. I have never, ever hung papers on a dog. NEVER. I gave Epp the pup's papers when he got him. What he did w/ the papers after that or went on between him & the pup's new owner I do not know.

 

Well that's all fine and good but what does that have to do with what I said. To me that dog looks like an AB that's what I would have said. Is your point that looks can be deceiving?? well I think that point was proven when they did the ' Can you find the APBT'
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
I said they look like Catahoula Bulldogs I didn't say it was one or that it was mixed etc. I said

' Personally, I think they look very similar to Catahoula Bulldogs.'

As far as your rant on the ADBA if you don't like what they have to say about Merles then don't register with them. Whole thing sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, but then again I don't own merles so there you go.

 

Does this LOOK like a PURE BRED APBT?


http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=23873


It don't to me.