Littermate breeding info?

Looking for knowledge on litter mate breeding from those of you with experience in breeding that tight. Thank you.

 

I only do that when I'm tightening up to preserve certain bloodlines. The first thing is they have to be TOTALY healthy, I do A COMPLETE blood workup first, then go from there

 

What knowledge are you looking for? It's possible, it's done often, it has produced good and bad. I'd say the biggest thing going forward pertains to dominant and recessive genes. Basically in a nutshell you can bring forward all the good things you want as well as the bad you don't if not careful. They can carry certain recessive genes that don't express themselves and if both of them carry it when bred some of the pups will display it. I say it's no different than any other breeding, do it and three years later ask yourself of it worked

 

I was looking at a litter mate breeding someone else had done they are selling pups. I always thaught when doing that type of breeding you keep the best and cull the rest.

 

Well most do that with any breeding, unless bred to sell pups

 

It is trickey! Better know for sure pretty much the ancestors. Like CB said you can lock up tight the good but also the bad!! Take A look at the bottom half of Toranado!! The few times I've done it I kept every one!! Then cull hard! Although there has been A few gators, it's the exception your looking for brood stock.

 

Can you elaborate on how/ why, father / daughter is ok, but not dam/ dog.. There really isnt much difference is there.. I mean, incest is incest right..

 

Not bulldogs, but I have a couple young tree hounds that are brother x sister pups (going on 2 & 1/2 yrs), from 2 dogs out of a frozen semen breeding from a dog in the early 90's . They are fine, no health or mental issues, healthy all around. But as stated, when breeding this tight one must watch & cull accordingly ..

 

This is the impression I got was a peddler who baught littermates and now is breeding them to make a buck

 

Here is my take on Littermate breedings.....There are different degrees of good and bad traits in every dogs lineage and they tend to show up when bred.....the tighter the breeding the higher the percentage of the good AS WELL AS THE BAD TRAITS tend to surface and show itself......the key is and has always been proper selection and good ole fashion CULLING......The tightest inbreeding is FULL BROTHER TO SISTER.....followed by Father to daughter/Mother to son.

P.S. my experience comes from breeding my strain of chihuahua called the No mas El Chapo blood line. LMAO

 

I agree when it comes to this subject there is a lot of wrong attentions at times...
Mr Hargroves said we was not a fan inbreeding dogs to much from his experiences
but said he has seen it work well for others and he thought it was just how the genes line up
and his best results was the battle cross...

I think it all depends on alot of things from health as Trotline mentioned,,,
to the strength of the genes and how well the good ones click with each other,,,
but the difference with inbreeding can be bad if the bad genes link up...
To where a regular non-inbred litter can either click or not with out so much risk of defects...

I dont agree that a bro ex sis breeding is any more inbred that a parent ex offspring
and take into account how tight the dogs being bred are to each other as well the guess work if the good genes link and not defects...

If the parents are from different families or loose out crosses,,,
the chances of non defects might be better and the tighter you can breed...

If they come from outcross bred dogs and the different dogs/lines add to the chances
of a bigger gene pool to add to the mix and one might be that lucky one that clicks,,,
with a small gene pool you are limited to a few...

either way if you line as many generations of game dogs as possible with no culls,,,
the better your chances of one of their good genes has a chance for its head to pop...

If the parents are not of a tight breeding I have to differ with the bro ex sis breeding as being any tighter than other inbreedings,,,
for example both the offspring carries hallf mom and half dads blood,,,
if they are not related the genes have chance to pull from more genetics to where when you breed a parent ex offspring the
offspring will be 75% the parents blood and 25% grandmas lessing the chance for her genetics to show...

now this is merley pedigrees and as I mentioned what genes link up where and health etc plays a bigger part,,,
I have heard both sides of the fence even in horse breeding that some have had better or worse results with
on or the other as far as bro ex sis or parent ex offspring and you hear also hear or see pros and cons from inbreeding
or not... Chicken breeders have some interesting inbreeding techniques as well and its mostly found in performance animals...

I would avoid most inbreedings myself but on the other hand admire the 357 dog whom was a perfect example a bro ex sis breeding,,,
two excellent siblings and perfect bulldog standards from individual qualities possessed and also passed form the last generations to the next...
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=10693
there are many other not as known examples of inbreeding success...
Plenty of father ex daughter and son ex mother breeding have clicked as well,,,
I bet it is more far and few than most imagine and the possibilities of defects should be pondered...

Sometimes that inbred generation is meant to outcross and inbred dogs outcross great,,,
so sometimes it skips a generation and is wound tight ready for the next out...

now ponder how a five time inbred son can be of either box quality or producing quality let alone both???
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=64
some say too tight???
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=68
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=66
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=67
some say just right!!!

I like your studies Benthere that Deacon and them were meant to be outcrossed as they were bred tight enough,,,
as deacon and his isblings were 8x inbred grandchildren of redboy and 16x+ greatg.sire teals jeff...

In my studies the tighter they bred those redboy dogs made for more brood than box but
the genes were able to inbreed very tight on for an awful long time,,,
makes me wonder about the vast genetics in redboys carolina pool from colby and bullet
to ofrn and I suspect possible grandpas old hound dog...

 

I was gonna mention Limey. He preaches the phenotype breedings as sort of an "outcross" but on paper it's inbred. How do you feel about this? Not all the triple game cold dog shit, purely breeding methods. The fact that his Alligator dogs look so much a like is striking to me! I don't know about their performance personally, but they have won enough to be talked about. Floyd and Clemmons laid it out yrs ago to breed the red Eli, Maverick, back to the black. Same with some strains of Boyles and Redboy. Mr Hammonds doesn't breed as tight as Limey or most, and his dogs have a HUGE variation among litters. I know the individual is always the first to assess in breeding, but what of the oddball throwback to grandparents in an inbred litter? Treat em the same or take into consideration the different phenotype compared to the rest of the litter?

 

Thanks for all the info. Nice to hear it from experience.

 

I agree and see alot of variety in the Hammonds family from huge to small and every build and color...
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=531421
a nice little bitch that look exactly like the biggest most athletic bitch I have ever seen well into a catchweight
and moved like a panther...
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=357716
I have also seen short blocky brindle dogs down from snort that were the complete opposite in looks...

 

DNA wise a black alligator dog and a brindle alligator dog will be the same if off same litter right??? Now I don't know about anybody else but if a dog is at my place when it's an adult and it's being bred, it ain't got anything to do with what color it is..... You mean to tell me if your trying to recreate the sire of a litter then you want to automatically count out any that don't have same color.....

I just can't agree with that

 

I agree and I believe it limits you from not seeing everything the blood has to offer.These dogs come in so many sizes , colors, shapes...I see no reason to limit yourself.

 

I don't believe every dog shares the exact same DNA. Even littermates. I never said discount the other dogs in the litter. Honestly, everything equal, would you breed to the brindle or the black dog that looks just like his sire? I agree with makin it to breeding. If I see your second and third bdays, you earned it, I'm wit that. If I breed the litter I want to keep em all as close as possible to watch em grow. If I buy a pup, I want it to look like the line average. I like my Eli black or brindle, Andy Capp or Dirty Mary type tri or red black mask, I'd buy a brindle alligator pup but not over a black one. I'm talkin about using color as a method with success, not the only way to breed. Like when Floyd said breed the black to red. Like an outcross but of the same family. I don't base my yard on color either, but I have preferences. If 2 littermate studs of equal badass were down the street, I would breed to the one that looks like the rest of the family. Now if the other produced better then that's where I'm goin. I'm no dummy.