If he was a cur..

Have you ever seen a dog that would whip the hell out of anything that was put in front of him, but when handled wouldn't scratch? Or, a dog that would perform with remarkable ability until his opponent was left prone and defenseless, then he would let up and walk away? One of the best dogs I ever saw was Tudor's "Spike". He was an out and out destroyer, but once he had his opponent down and stretched out, he would stop his assault and lick his adversary...If the other dog moved at all "Spike" went back to his murderous ways and if he was handled he would not, in the least, hesitate to scratch. Of course, since the other dog had also been handled, "Spike" was aware that the other dog had moved, even if only by his handler. Howard Heinzl mentioned to me, on more than one occasion, that he considered "Spike" less than a game dog because of this trait. If he was a cur, then I'd certainly like a yard full of curs just like him.

Most animal specialists, who have studied animal behaviour, all seem to agree that animals will fight one another in the wild for either sex or food. However, when one or the other adopts a submissive posture, the other will see that he is the winner and stops fighting or else allows his opponent to beat a hasty retreat, without any further aggressive behaviour. In studies done with wolves, a dogs closest relative in the wild state, this certainly seems to be the case. If the 'Alpha' male is challenged, he'll find the pretender to the death, if necessary. If either becomes convinced that he isn't going to win the battle, all that he has to do is stop fighting, adopt a submissive posture and the whole thing is over and done with. The protagonists are back to being good buddies before the dust even settles.

We must remember, that the rules and regulations that govern a contest between two dogs have been fashioned by human beings, after a pre-Marquis of Queensbury boxing match. A man who was knocked down was taken to his corner, given a certain time to regain his senses, and then walk to the center of the ring, to the scratch line, and assume a posture that would tell one and all that he was ready to resume the battle. Much like a turn and scratch in our sport. But, that is what we humans have used as a criteria to judge a dogs gameness. There may be some recessive gene in our modern day bulldogs that still harbors that particular trait. After all, it is a common trait, of our dogs closest relative, living in a wild state. I've often wondered if a residue of that gene could be hidden in the genetic makeup of some of our modern day dogs.

Some years ago, Tommy Gill and Indian Eddie, two New England fanciers, had bred some dogs by Ron Petronelli's Ch."Fox" (Massachusetts), a littermate to some great dogs, including Davis' Gr.Ch."Boomerang", Art's "Missy" and Brown's Ch."Nell". They sent me down a bunch of this breeding since I had recently moved south, and now had plenty of room to keep more dogs than I was able to keep in the north. Of course, not every dog they sent me was an "ace". But some, like Indian Eddie's Ch."Mork", Ch."Lochen", Timmy's (Irish Tim's) "Hogger", White's "Maple" (produced Broadway Jack's "Kelly"), and Irish Tim's "Darby" were certainly a cut above a good dog. A few others seemed to be just as good that we never got around to matching and of course, there were some that were flat out rank curs. One of those that never did get matched was a 51 lb. dog, that Timmy called "Little Fox". The dog was a veritable powerhouse. The first time I rolled him, he ran over to the other dog and wanted to romp around and play with him. The other dog didn't want any of that nonsense and tore into "Little Fox" with a vengeance. "Little Fox" was shocked, you could see in his face that his feelings were hurt and a lot more of him was getting hurt as well.

It took "Little Fox" two or three minutes to realize that the other dog didn't want to make friends with him and for the next ten or twelve minutes "Little Fox" took the other dog apart. He had him down and was killing his inert and defenseless opponent. Then it suddenly appeared that "Little Fox" got a message, from some long repressed gene, that told him that his opponent was in submissive position, not able to defend himself. "Little Fox" backed off, crouched down on his front legs, while sticking his wagging tail in the air in a dogs posture of playing. We picked up the dogs to see if "Little Fox" would scratch. He ran straight over to the other dog and resumed his attempts to play with the dog. "Little Fox" would fight that dog and two others that we rolled him with, just as long as those dogs would fight back, but, at the slightest indication that the other dog was through fighting, "Little Fox" would try to make friends with them. I often thought that acting in this manner was a throwback to how animals act in the wild.

I sent "Little Fox" back to Timmy and I think that he did breed him once, before he got out of the dogs. I never found out how the pups turned out, if there were any pups. I knew one thing, I wasn't going to match him. But I always thought that if this dog was responding to some long displaced gene, he might well be worth breeding. On the other hand, there may be nothing more to the gene theory other than making an excuse for a dog that had everything to win, but didn't have the fire in his blood to scratch back to the action. It seems that many reputable breeders will not hesitate to breed to a well bred, cold bitch, but avoid like the plague a dog that won't scratch, Many times they opt to breed to a well known dog that has never even been rolled.

 

game-dogs are supposed to be game! There's absolutely no reason to breed to a male that's a freak athlete/destroyer that won't scratch. Especially when you can take your pick of studs that are freak athletes...AND SCRATCH TOO.

A young dog that's not fully started can and will act funny, but a fully started dog that won't scratch and tries to play with his opponent; I guess you could call that "a throwback to how animals acted in the wild", but I call it a cur.

 

Thank you! this was the story I was trying to find a while back...

 

a dog like this, in my opinion would be a great dog. aside from any matching or sporting, he seemed to have ability that would make him useful in a real life type situation. judging by his behavior it wasnt from any fear or lack of ability that would stop him from scratching, it was a misunderstanding in the part of the dog. the dog knew to turn on when he was threatened and didnt let up until things were under control. he might not be any good for matching but he would be great for anything else.

 

That is what dogs do. We have selectively bred certain breeds to want to continue fighting a dead opponent, but it is a completely unnatural thing for them to do. It is absolutely a survival mechanism built into dogs to ensure they don't expent unnecessary energy when food may be hard to come by at times. Also, almost every wild animal has a host of ritualist displays and threats to avoid fatal damage in a confrontation because they can't just go to the vet to get patched up. You could go out and find a nice aggressive example of any other breed you wanted and they would do the exact same thing. Although it isn't an ideal in many people's minds for these dogs to act this way, we should remember we have a couple of hundred years of breeding trying to overcome hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.

 

Dogs are like 30,000 years removed from wolves...

You could call anything a dog does that can be in comparison to the way a wolf acts a "prehistoric gene". Its probably just there because an animal somewhere along the line that shouldnt of been bred happened to be bred anyways. Anything that is in that dog is there because someone allowed it IMO.

 

you can breed game dog to game dog with no curs in the ped for six generations and youre still going to get curs.

 

Yeah, but we are talking genetics. You are going to get curs and a cur is a cur in some peoples opinion. But those dogs are quiters cuz they are suckin wind or just decided they have had enough.. not because of a genetic inablity to continue... you arent going to get one of those in every breeding.

 

Alot of mav dogs are like that they seem to lose intrest and just quit on top i have a very close friend that feeds that line and he tells me he has to cull extra hard nust cause of this

 

Have you ever seen me in the ring with you about to shoot you? Hoping that you lay there defenseless. No, but it happens in my dreams all the time! Tick tock Tick tock

 

i would of let little fox get a little older and tryed him again.

 

I also think that immaturity may have had something to do with Little Fox as well.
This fact that most dogs will not fight a non-threatening opponent was well known in the past. That is why the rules state that no dog can be made to scratch against a dead opponent. A dog that will do that is very uncommon and I often wondered if "finish" doesn't begin with genetics but must be developed with experience. It is a very valuable trait in a gamedog.

I would not breed to a dog like that nor would I breed to a cold bitch. I think that doing so is throwing back into your dogs those unwanted traits.