Game until proven cur?

I don't know if this particular discussion has ever been brought up.. but if it has just point me toward the thread.. but I am curious how ya'll feel about this. Staying within the rules in the pre 76 days..

in ya'll's opinion was a dog considered game until proven a cur or was the dog a cur until proven game?

 

i would agree with you.

but here is a true cur!!!

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</td> <td align="left" bgcolor="#efefef" width="100%"> 20 yo old cop kills 6 <hr height="1" width="100%"> If only they worried about bigger issues than our bulldogs, read on.


By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer
11 minutes ago



CRANDON, Wis. - The residents of a remote northern Wisconsin community struggled to understand Monday how a sheriff's deputy who killed six young people and critically wounded another could have become a law enforcement officer.

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Tyler Peterson, 20, was shot to death after opening fire early Sunday on a group of students and recent graduates who had gathered for pizza and movies during their high school's homecoming weekend. Peterson was off-duty from his full-time job as a Forest County deputy sheriff; he also was a part-time Crandon police officer.

David Franz, 36, who lives with his wife two houses from the duplex where the shooting occurred, said it was hard to accept that someone in law enforcement was the gunman.

"The first statement we said to each other was, 'How did he get through the system?'" Franz said. "How do they know somebody's background, especially that young? It is disturbing, to say the least."

Sheriff Keith Van Cleve said he would meet with state Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen on Monday morning to discuss the case.

Crandon Police Chief John Dennee said the investigation would be handled by the state Department of Criminal Investigation because the suspect was a deputy and officer.

Peterson was killed Sunday afternoon, eight miles north of Crandon in the rural town of Argonne, Dennee said.

Crandon Mayor Gary Bradley said Sunday that a sniper killed the suspect, but Van Cleve would not confirm that officers shot him.

The gunman's motive was unclear, but the mother of a 14-year-old victim said the suspect may have been a jealous boyfriend.

"I'm waiting for somebody to wake me up right now. This is a bad, bad dream," said Jenny Stahl, whose daughter, Lindsey Stahl, was the youngest victim. "All I heard it was a jealous boyfriend and he went berserk. He took them all out."

Dennee declined comment on whether Peterson had a romantic relationship with any of the victims.

The lone survivor of the shooting, a male, remained in critical condition Monday at St. Joseph's Hospital, according to nursing supervisor Penny Funk.

The white, two-story duplex where the shooting occurred was about a block from downtown Crandon, a small town located 225 miles north of Milwaukee in an area known for logging and outdoor activities. The victims had gathered for what Dennee described as "a pizza and movie party."

David Franz's wife, Marci, said she was awakened by the gunshots.

"I heard probably five or six shots, a short pause and then five or six more," she said. "I wasn't sure if it was gunfire initially. I thought some kids were messing around and hitting a nearby metal building."

Then she heard eight louder shots and tires squealing, she said.

"I was just about to get up and call it in, and I heard sirens," she said. "There's never been a tragedy like this here. There's been individual incidents, but nothing of this magnitude."

Three of the victims were Crandon High School students, said school Superintendent Richard Peters, and the other three had graduated within the past three years.

"There is probably nobody in Crandon who is not affected by this," Peters said, adding that students "are going to wake up in shock and disbelief and a lot of pain."

Peters did not know whether Peterson had graduated from the 300-student school. But Crandon resident Karly Johnson, 16, said that she knew the gunman and that he had helped her in a tech education class.

"He graduated with my brother," she said. "He was nice. He was an average guy. Normal. You wouldn't think he could do that."

The Crandon School District called off classes Monday.

One victim, 20-year-old Bradley Schultz, was a third-year student at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee who was home to visit his friends, said his aunt, Sharon Pisarek.

"We still don't have many details, but from what they've told us, there was a girl next to him and he was covering her, protecting her," she said, sobbing. "He was loved by everybody. He was everybody's son. Senseless."

Another aunt, Rose Gerow, said Schultz was majoring in criminal justice and wanted to be a homicide detective.

"This is senseless because they were friends," Gerow said. "These guys weren't after his girlfriend, they were just getting together."

The town of about 2,000 people last made headlines in August, when community groups and a soldier helped bring an Iraqi girl to the United States for a cornea transplant. The mayor pleaded Monday for support to help the town begin to heal.

"This is something we have to put back together," he said.

___

Associated Press writer Dinesh Ramde in Milwaukee contributed to this report.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071008/ap_on_re_us/wisconsin_shooting

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Well even though I still had not yet been born, from research and my own personal opinion, I woul dhave to say that the TRUE dogmen of the past considered there dogs "curs" until they proved themselves worthy of having the "game dog" title.
I do think that they obviously had game BRED dogs, but didnt consider them game until they proved it.
JMO....
great thread!

 

Kind of a hard question to anwser,for myself if a dog showed good signs in a roll he wasn't a cur but he didn't prove to me that he was game yet either.all a person could go by was what they seen in a roll if the dog looked good in a roll then his ultimate game test was his first match.thats where you know right then and there what kind of dog you have on your hands.about all you could do was select the best dog you could and just see what happened,just like with everything else in life sometimes you won other times you lost,but you didn't fall to pieces about it.you learned from it and just kept on getting better and better each time.i think everyone should have had a few curs in their lifetime it taught a good lesson and in the long run really made them that much better.

 

well just my personal opinion..a gamedog with a cur owner left alot to the imagination.


Many great dogs rotted on the chain because of the great dogmen that went after easier fish.

 

I'm leaning towards FK's answer on this. I think its easier to assume the dog to be cur until he proves that he's game.

Hence the game test.

How could anyone assume the dog to be game until proven cur if he's not tested.
I think its easier to assume that hes a cur but lets game test him to see if he's game or game enough to win.

 

An old man told me about a roll back in 75' that was a supposed "game test" for a dog he was wanting to match. The dog he went into was rough as hell. Old mans dog was a big ? because no one really knew, or wanted to say where the dog came from. Just one of those things I guess. The man said he looked really good conformation wise and had been rolled a couple times and never showed bad signs. He said nothing went passed 15 minutes. Well this night he was in for a run. Both dogs came in at 45lbs. Old mans dog was jet black, the others dog was red. He said they hit eachother like someone shot a couple pistols at one another. The red dog was said to be a barnstormer and he was proving that to be true. His wrestling ability was said to have totally dwarfed the black dogs but the red dog had no mouth. Old man said the red dog was rough but the black dog had heart. "He took it and took it and took it" he said. The story goes that anyone standing there would have never bet on the black dog but someone who really knew what to look for would have seen the signs of frustration in the red dog. Old man said a little after the 2 hour mark, they had been scratching for an hour, the red dog came out slow, and then not at all. He knew he had a matchdog. He said the black dog got better as the time went on, that he scratched harder at 2 hours than he did at a half hour. Im no pro, but I would have agreed that this was a match worthy animal. Old man said the 1st time he took him out for money, his black dog brought its A-game. At the 30 minute mark, he said his dog had totally ruined the other guys. He said he thought his dog had finally come into his own. The others dog was said to have shit in the box and old mans dog ran his head through it. Then the worst thing that could have happened, happened. The old mans dog got romantic. He said his dog mounted and humped for an hour and fifteen minutes before a scratch that he crossed on, but never took hold. Just mounted. Old man said he was yelling at the top of his lungs but his dog wouldnt bite. He said he (the dog)was somewhere else that night. I wasnt even born yet, but if I know this fella, Im sure that dog was culled before the old man even drank another beer. That was one of the 1st stories I heard that really had me by the strings.

 

good story i wouldt say that a dog is ethier game or cur until he earns that title

 

nobody is going to keep dogs they consider curs, so cur until proven game isnt going to fly, everyone would be putting down most their dogs. Just because a dog hasnt been drug (back from the dead), doesnt give the dog a cur title

and Old Timer is correct

 

sounds to me like the second dog you were tellin me about might have been around a bitch in season b4 dropping him in the box...lota people will try that shit on ya they have all kinds of rub downs they try

 

Now maybe I misread the post but does anybody think 2 hrs is way way to much time to test a match dog?You said ''nothing ever lasted 15mins'' which means he was down a few times already.If you cant tell if one was worth a bet in 20/30mins than you need a new hobby.Now a brood dog is another story.Alot of match dogs are ruined in the schoolin prossess.

 

agree with Virgil .. All this considering the average match is around 40 mins? If you got a dog going 2 hrs, regardless of what happens, maybe thats the best dog on your yard... allthough Ive been told if you cant tell within the first 10 -15 minutes lol. But 20- 30 is most reasonable.

a dog is neither game nor cur until proven either or.

and I agree about the bitch in season. That or that dog was bred and as stated, his mind isnt on domination, its on reproducing.. that can happen. I've seen a few nice prospects ruined because of bitches in heat and the owner not bright enough to get the dog's mind back on what it should be doing to give it a truely fair shake.

 

DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER. Both dogs were washed and dried but the handlers arms and cornermans arms were not. but those days were MANY years ago Pre 76 and every one was "friends" at that show so you never think untill hindsight takes over. J

 

Well, it is very easy to see that a dog is considered neither curr, nor game, until either is proven to be true. When a dog in it's raising is showing good sign, we considered(pre76) them to be a prospect (prospective game dog). Kinda like in the Hell's Angels, a person showing the right sign is moved into a prospect. When a prospect, the schooling really begins, kinda like a refiners fire, which will make the weakness come to the surface.

As to the 15 min thing, it sounded like the dog had been tested a couple times, not matched. And just because a dog is rolled for 15min doesnt mean that all would be shown. Some rolls you can tell in 15min, some it takes a bit longer. All rolls are not the same.

As to the game test. It is real easy not to take a dog far enough, and on the other side of the coin, it is real easy to take a dog too far. That is why it was important for a person to find someone to take them under their wing, so that they could take the game farther. Kinda like oldtimer was saying, each step you learned something new.

Then there is another dog. The cold dog. Niether game, nor curr, just uninterested in the game. Many people have simply abused these dogs to try and get them to fight. If a cold dog has nice dogs behind them, we would not hesitate to breed them, and have got great results from this. Why? dont know why, just have. It is my opinion that a dog should not even be rolled unless showing interest, and sometimes interest wont show till 3 years old, usually what I have seen is around the age of 14-16 months my dogs turn on.

 

From my days and experience with the dogmen before 76', all dogs (with them) were game bred, but not considered game until until proven. I am sure though, that are and will be a lot of different opinions on this subject. I can only speak from my own personal experience and my opinion.

 

I can understand that to be true as to what I said as well. Neither of the two, but they were never given the privilege of being considered game first hand.

 

My opinion is the polar opposite. Cur until proven game.

 

I dont know a lot about pitbulls but i would guess that lines that have been proven over generations can expected to be game.The only experience i have with game bred animals are pitfowl,but pitfowl i.e. Gamecocks have been bred for thousands of yrs waay before gamedogs so we dont need to game test birds.

 

THE REAL question is.... WHAT is a Curr?????? You have to know what a real curr is before you can call a dog a real true curr or not..... EVERY Dog Will "Curr".... and yes EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.... Toney, Duke, and the rest that proved to be as game as a live one could be and even the dead Game ones... THEY ALL will "curr" but NOT everyone that "currs" is a CURR (imo)..... think about that one for a sec....

 

I don't know if they all will curr, but I do agree that the dogs were dogs, and not machines. They had (in reference even to Wallace's Toney or any other game dog etc.) thresholds, tolerances, environmental factors that would conceivably cause them to quit. It was the handler's duty to mitigate these factors through schooling, testing, conditioning, etc. but I do agree that they are flesh and bone...sometimes people have unrealistic expectations and visions of the past.