Conformation standards and breeding into the future

If that's your mentality, quit posting here and go show your dog in an UKC show cause that's where you belong.

 

Your comprehension is not correct, the philosophy would be do not put the cart before the horse, the unique determination for the breed must be considered before all else. Once we can get that straight then we should be nitpicking on the physical aspects of the breed. Physical perfection is only "ONE" part of conformation. And if we only breed for physical correctness as judged by a conformation show, the dogs will continue to move away from what they were intended for. The whims of a conformation judge vary and more times than not the vendors will have more experience with these dogs than the judges.

 

there is a difference between working animals and show dogs. Breeding based on appreciate doesn't test function, mentally toughness or heart which are a must in a working dog. Look at the shepards and rotts bred in this country for example. They have been bred to a written standard based on looks and that is why while they may look the part the are mentally weak, bodys aren't functional and they are plagued with health issues. What your suggesting is comparable to picking a basketball team of players who look like they can play basketball instead of choosing players who have proven they are good. One just doesn't make sense and I hope you can figure out which one doe and which doesnt

 

part of conformation is longevity or basically how long a dog can use and abuse its body serving us.
Conformation is import but it is not the only thing about an apbt

 

Here is an example of someone who is the ideal nba player with his size length and freakish athletic ability. With his physical tools you would expect him to be an phenom and that potential is the only reason teams continue to give him chances but there is something missing. His physical gifts don't translate on the basketball court but the only reason we know that is because he has been tested. If he were a bulldog he would be a cull
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/james_white/#$/playerfile/james_white/index.html

 

I call it durability and its a must. I think good angulation is need so a dog has leverage to push and pull. I also like my dogs to at least have a decent height to legnth ratio. Like I said its very important to me but its still just part of the package and not the most important part.

 

That is coming direct from the ADBA show conformation show standard. You seem to dismiss the fact that the ADBA has conformation rules by which to judge a dog. The ADBA has sanctioned conformation shows. You We can get rid of those pesky things. Stands to reason why so few conformation shows are being held.

So I guess in your mind, conformation makes for a pretty dog but, not a working dog? You reference Germany. I'll bet you a million to 1 that the dog exported from Germany does not have conformation defects.

How about that recent post regarding a line of dogs that are blind. Great dogs, aren't they? They can win a match but of little use for anything else.

Gameness is very important, but so is conformation. Gameness helps them win in the pit or in other working aspects. But, breeding dogs with deformations, especially with how close most of these dogs are bred sets these traits. Line breeding and inbreeding not only sets good traits but, the bad traits as well.

 

I agree...and i think people are taking this conformation thing out of porportion...its funny how people think if they breed for conformation they will lose their gameness...that is false...these American Pitbulls have proved them selves for many many years..

 

Most important component of the breed standard is temperment, gameness being the most important component of that. If the dogs not right in the head no sense in even looking at it's physique. Considering that probably more than half of the great pit dogs wouldn't even be considered for show, so long as the dog isn't impaired or crippled or structurally weak (dog can have a superbly functional body and still be technically out of conformation) conformation just isn't that important except for keeping a reference point and for people who like to look at pretty dogs. Also it stands to reason that the conformation standard should evolve with the continued development of the dogs.

 

The way the original posting was worded in what it seems a way to spark discussion, and as far as that goes I wouldn't try to guess how many shows he/she goes to, but to say that people are putting conformation last at conformation shows in my opinion is inaccurate. The shows that I go to have an abundance of good looking dogs. What I expressed is to the contrary that there are a bunch of pretty dogs out there and not enough focus has been put into its heart, to which I received no reply. As far as your comment goes, and comments of that type have been seen on this forum for years, although they have been proven in the past, gameness can be lost in only a few generations or less, leaving us with a completely different breed. Take the complete dog into account when pursuing future endeavors in this breed most importantly as dictated by the standard, their heart.

 

Gameness is the easiest quality to loose and one will loose it quickly if one breeds for appearance and neglects gameness and temperment. Can happen in a single breeding to a dog with substandard temperment.

 

I totally disagree but this is my own personal opinion...you cannot breed the gameness out of a true A.P.B.T...for example ive seen proven dogs..that have bin bred and the whole litter turned out to be curs...ive also seen dogs that were never tested and when bred..dropped a couple of champions...its all the luck of the draw...you mite get a good one you mite get a bad one..but its still an A.P.B.T.

 

I totally respect your opinion and agree that it is the luck of the draw, sometimes. Other times families are built on dogs which have consistently proven themselves. In the game of %'s it can go either way, but to build a breed on unproven dogs, hoping for the best would be foolhearty

 

Using that frame of logic and knowing its a gamble, would you choose to breed to just anyone's dog and cross your fingers, or to a dog that can reproduce favorable characteristics into its offspring? But then I'd be moving off topic with that.

 

That's the result of recessive genes being expressed. Somewhere in the wood pile there was a game dog that particular breeding caused that genetic material to be expressed. The way to combat that is breed tight and cull, make the wood pile smaller so you have a better idea what the possible outcomes are. You can never eliminate luck entirely but you can increase the odds by only breeding dogs with the desirable traits. That's how all breeds were created in the first place. There was never a time when there were wild pitbulls or dachshunds, or great danes running through the forest. These breeds were all created by people breeding selectively and temperment is as much a result of genetics and breeding as any other quality.

 

Of coarse not...im not a rookie to the dog game by all Means...i would breed to proven dogs anyday over a pretty dog with good conformation...But as a breeder or just a dog owner...you must better the breed to get rid of the negative physical traits...thus bringing us back to conformation....

 

Exactly and the most important part of the conformational standard? Say it with me, gameness . In no way was I calling anyone green or a rookie, but when the op is about the order of traits when concerning conformation, it has all been laid out by that little thing called the ADBA Standard. When future soundness of the breed is concerned one will only have to look to the past as a roadmap for future success.

 

Then when u find someone who is doing the same and has an equally potent line u can cross to it, create some genetic variation and hence some hybrid vigor. Potentially producing something more potent than either original line. In theory. Both lines need to be equally potent however and compatible.

 

This experience has been done, its called the american staffordshire terrier. That's what's happened after generations of strictly conformation breeding. Why don't you start running those and let me know how your percentages are. There are no absolutes in any aspect of life, there are always exceptions to the but a smart man bases his decisions on the rule vs the exception. Look at the top producers of all time, the vaste majority were game performers. the fact that you think gameness can't be lost tells me all I need to know SOOOO ill let you other guys have this convo. Dream is done

 

"The only truly fatal flaws in a dog are in their heart & mind" Benthere

These dogs were bred to be game and can overcome any conformation flaw if their heart and mind are right.

Op you should probably read this thread as this has been discussed before comparing show dogs to game dogs is pointless as they are bred for two very different things.

Fatal Flaws in Working Dogs - Page 3