Breeding outside of the APBT?

I think the only reason to breed outside of this breed is as Mia said earlier to help strengthen the gene pool of like breeds that have APBT blood (or it's predecessors) in their lineage. If I had an excellent representative of the breed and were asked to do a breeding for this purpose by a top of the line breeder of other said breed, I would gladly oblige for the sake of keeping another good working breed from becoming nothing more than a footnote in a dog breed book...

 

Thats what is called "PUTTING SOME FIYAHhh!!! IN THERE"

 

Amen... wait, can you walk them?

It is their right to do it, I agree. But it ISN'T right to label them APBTs.

The dogs in question don't conform to any standards but their own, this is why Dave Wilson created the ABKC, for "bully dogs". He himself has admitted to crossbreeding with other breeds, I'm sure Gotti was too.

Opinion has nothing to do with a set standard on which responsible breeders are supposed to go by. Both UKC and ADBA have standards written for which all dogs in a certain breed are supposed to follow. I understand with our breed, there will be some variences in size, weight, etc. but no matter if it's at the far ends, 80 lbs or 25lbs, the dog in question should still conform to standards. This and the fact that they don't breed for anything besides money is why I feel most of these breeders are unethical.

Thanks, I try to put comedy in most things.

I don't know Terry Tillis, I am actually located in the far North East corner of OK, just a few miles from where Kansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri meet.

 

i take back what i said about breeding a pitbull with a catahoula or blackmouth cur, i got one a couple weeks ago, for a hog dog, well he won't go out and hunt like he should, i've turned fullblooded pitbulls out before and they hunt better than that mutt. so i think pitbulls should be bred fullblooded. i've heard of guys breeding em with greyhounds to get running catchdogs for hoghunting, but i don't see how it would be any better

 

My Answer Is No! Hey, If It Aint Broke Don't Fix IT! Keep Our Breed Pure... Keep It Real.:d

 

thats one of the only instances i know of where crosses i might make,,, but other tha that ,,, i would never change it,,,
here in the south catchdogs are often crossed with AB and apbt,, well hell just look at alot of the pics,,,

 

It is possibly that the the APBT by isolating interferences of this kind has increased in size. By adding of working races with Bulldogblut (for example Komosinskis English Bullterier, ABs, or Dogos) the appearance (the APBTs of America) can have changed during the last 150 years. It is possibly that a large part of the mixing blood was washed out by the Pit again , but if by chance sometimes a good mix came out (one of Thousand) he could have influence on the appearance of the line.

 

The whole thread has been looked at from the wrong angle, it was never the question of adding to the APBT to improve the breed. It was adding APBT to other breeds of dogs to help them out. At least that was the conversation the OP and I had in PM's. I have read many people post that anyone that would do that is an idiot, my reply is if you think APBT's started out from thin air you are not very smart, they had to come from people selectively breeding for the traits that they wanted. What ever the original combination of breeds used it made the APBT. I have no doubt in my mind that it was bulldog crossed with terrier, all I'm trying to do is use the original formula to create a smaller version of the original. People make new breeds of dogs every so often, if that wasn't true we would still be using one kind of common dog. Instead of downing someone elses ideals, maybe you should be thankful that someone had one. If that's not your cup of tea, so be it. Mouser P.S. 14Rock, you never have given your opinion yet, unless I missed it somewhere.

 

No actually it isn't.......Regarless of what you are trying to mix the APBT with..it is still the same thing....producing MUTTS...and you can argue all day long about I am adding the APBT to the Patterdale Terrier to giv the Patterdale whatever.....But in reality you are still Taking away from the both breeds...especially the APBT....this breed does go well in anything but its self....
If that is what you though our convo was about, well I am sorry there has been a great misunderstanding....I mean either way it is the same thing...
You cant take a patter and apbt and say you are helping one of them by adding the other, because by mixing them are adding to them both...when y ou mix, it is what it says...MIX not to JUST 1 but to BOTH!:confused:

 

"As both Brian Nuttail and Gary Middleton have stated, Fell Terriers, including Patterdales, of course, are gamer than Bull Terriers, but with much more sense, so what's the point of adding even more Bull Terrier blood which had already ruined many once sensible strains? Not only does the addition of Bull Terrier blood take away sense, but it also increases size greatly. I have seen sixteen-inch terriers get to ground and reach their fox simply because they had narrow fronts and spannable chest, but this addition can greatly increase chest size as well as leg-length and resultant offspring cannot get anywhere but the largest badger setts; places they are no longer allowed to enter. At one time such terriers would have been used as seizure dogs at the end of the badger digs, but that is now illegal and dogs of this size are useless as working animals, so why breed them in the first place? Further addition to Bull terrier blood is most undesirable in Patterdales and serves no useful purpose at all. Anyone who has worked with any modern Patterdale which is still bred along the old lines will agree with me when I say that they are already ultra-game and need the addition of Bull blood like they need a hole in the head!" -The Patterdale Terrier By: Sean Frain Page:82-83

 

The now extinct breeds Old English Bulldog and Old English Terrier were crossed to form a new breed of dog called the Bull and Terrier.
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The term "Old English Terrier" has also been applied, in the past and present, to the English White Terrier, the Patterdale Terrier, and the Black and Tan Terrier to some degree or another.
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How many times have you herd it said that catch weight APBT’s are no different or are the same as THE Old Bulldogs.

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These bull dogs (not to be confused with the modern AKC show version "bulldog" who is a recently created show ring breed) were used in exhibition contests against bulls called "bull baiting". When bull baiting was outlawed in the 1800's, bulldogs were contested against each other, to determine which dog had the determination and drive to keep at the task in the face of pain, fatigue and even death.


Because two handlers and a referee were in the pit with the dogs, the breed was selected for amazing stability; a calm, friendly manner with people - even under extreme pressure. Dogs which lashed out at humans, even strangers, while fighting or in pain were not tolerated. Amicability is the well bred American pit bull's heritage.


Todays American Pit Bull

In America, the pit bulldog of the British Isles has been perfected into a medium sized, athletic and physically tough animal possessing a very compliant nature (they are not "handler hard") endless energy, extreme toy drive and, when bred correctly, a boundlessly friendly nature with all people.

http://www.forpitssake.org/american.html

 

I can say this with all honestly, you have no ideal what your talking about, you don't know what my plans are. I'm not trying to fix any other terrier breed either, I'm making a new breed, however long it takes to do it. I do think there has been a misunderstanding, but it's been on your part, as to what I'm trying to accomplish. I don't want a "Pit bull" with some terrier added, it already has terrier blood. I don't want a hunting terrier with some "Pit bull" added, there's lots of them out there. People have posted that they have this or that, but if you ask them if they are interested in selling anything it's a no. People say try a Staffie bull, well I have, and all of them in the States that I have seen are too big! I guess it really doesn't matter anyway what you are anyone else thinks, but I will say it bugs me, that someone that doesn't even know me, questions my knowledge of dogs. Look at the "Modern day AB" they are not a old breed of dog, but a recent recreation of someones opinion of a working bulldog. 100 yrs. ago, most hounds in the states were just generic hounds, men have developed the strains, and after time they are considered breeds, but they are all still hounds. How many bull and terrier dogs are there? How many do the insurance companies and city halls consider "Pit bulls"? They are different breeds, but I still consider them bulldogs. If you can't understand that, well I'm done beating my head against the wall trying to show you, (not you specifically). I will continue to reach for my goal, and hopefully in time will achieve a nice dog, that can be added to the list of bull and terrier dogs. I would like to ask you some questions nicely, how long have you been involved in APBT's and what have you done with, or for them? Have you ever raised a litter? Where did you purchase the dogs that you have? These are only to let me know your qualifications to give advice to me about how I'm ruining "APBT's".
Mouser

 

Respect a true
Thoroughbred !

 

coolhandjean, I've read his book, but I didn't like it, and most hunters don't. Ask about it on any of the terrier working sites and see what they say. I've seen plenty of working terriers with bull blood added and they don't all work out, but plenty do, or people wouldn't be still doing the cross. Many times size is the issue, but it can be fixed pretty easy. I'll give you an example. My hunting buddy, has a bitch that he bred to a 1/2 pit, 1/2 terrier that weighed 29 lbs. the biggest in her litter was about 18 lbs. the smallest was 8lbs. I have a great grandson that's 12lbs. and the 1/2 bred dog is or was regularly worked in barns and brush piles in middle MO. Mouser

 

Amen to that! I have seen many APBTs down to 25-35 lbs. How small are you wanting to go? If you want any smaller, get a Rat Terrier or Chihuahua. I personally have a male that weighs ~35 lbs when conditioned, and he has a sister that weighs ~27 lbs. I know a 27 lb dog is really small to me, how about you? My suggestion is to look around for some one with dogs on the small size and get one from them. If you find a good line with known small dogs, you will be years ahead of what you are trying to accomplish. Trust me, small dogs are around, you just need to look.

You want proof? Bandogs will not breed true and keep shrinking to APBT sizes. Every few generations, they have to add Mastiff blood. Don't you think your experimental dogs would be the same? Eventually, you would end up with dogs that are APBT in looks, the other dog in temperament. BAD IDEA!

 

You are a real card, I like your tenacity, just like a good bulldog. Let me just say this, bulldogs have had stuff added many, many times over, if bred back to bulldogs, it just eats that other blood up. By that I mean people have had accidental breedings with their bitch tied out in the yard. The mixed pups would be culled maybe, but most often just given away. Someone would end up with one, and try them at their original purpose, only to have them work. They end up getting bred back to bulldog, and the cycle continues. I've seen them and you can ask old timers if it ain't true. Greyhounds have a very healthy dose of bulldog blood coursing through their veins, read some history on them, I don't remember the guys name, but he had a racing kennel in England. He added bulldog blood and his dogs won more races, so they were bred to everyone elses dogs. It don't take many generations to get rid of the wiry coat in terriers. If I get some time tonight I'll scan some pics out of some of my books to show you. If you can get this ideal that a bulldog was a generic term used for any dog that would do the job of a bulldog, they you will start to see where I'm coming from. Later, Mouser

 

I'm looking at it as a challenge, and I'm not in any big hurry to get it all done. I've considered it for years, and have worked to get ready to proceed.

 

I understand where Mouser is coming from (atleast I think I do), When we loose sight of the purpose is when we get to caught up in having a "Pure Bred" instead of breeding working dogs to working dogs to get working dogs. The APBT "breed" is not a breed like any other, more like strands of dogs that were bred for a purpose, hell I don't consider a pure Colby bred Colby dog the same breed as say a pure OFRN, i see them as two different breeds with two completely different ancestors, the ONLY thing they share is that they were bred for the same purpose. And What happened to breeding for a purpose regardless of the combo may be as long as the person breeding it gets what he desires out of it. Frankly it's none of our business regardless of what we think. The other people that should be concerned is the people getting these dogs from the person that did what ever they did. I Say Go with what Works of the purpose that you’re shooting after.

 

That's odd. I was recommended that book by a Patterdale Terrier breeder. That is the only reason I got it, and they said that they liked it a lot and would recommend it to someone interested in the breed. But I am not going to argue about it with you. If it is works for you, then fine, and as long you don't try to say it's some breed that it isn't, then that's fine. But you aren't making the breed better, you are just making a dog that may be better suites to YOUR personal needs, but not making a dog that is better for the whichever particular breed. The American Pit Bull Terrier is great the way it is. The Patterdale Terrier is awesome the way it is. If your mixture of those two breeds work for you, Good, but don't say you are bettering either breed. You are just making a mixed breed that works best for you, which you are entitled to do, if you so wish.