Breeding outside of the APBT?

Why in the hell are you yelling?

 

I don't know if we are still on topic, but I do know of some folks who are crossing abpt's with mastiff crosses to use as catch dogs (bandoges). The are pretty intense awesome working dogs. The dogs they breed come out about 100lbs, long legs, with bulldogish heads. They are pure working dogs and not something you'd keep as a house pet. The traits are not locked in, so when you need a new bandoge you need to cross apbt with a mastiff cross again. You can cross the mastiff with various breeds to get the legs or whatever characteristics you are looking for in your working dog. Its not a 'cheap' cross because you basically need 3 good quality pure bred dogs.

 

SORRY, DON'T HAVE TIME TO STUDY "KENNEL HISTORY", WOULD RATHER STUDY THE HISTORY OF THE DOGS. I MAY BE WRONG ABOUT SOME TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF REGISTERING A.K.C. / U.K.C., BUT THE JIST IS BASICALLY THE SAME. GOT MY FIRST PIT IN 1982, SO I HAVE DEVELOPED MY OWN THOUGHTS ON THE ISSUE. I WON'T BOTHER WITH A.K.C. / U.K.C PAPERS. A.D.B.A. IS A DIFFERENT STORY, BUT I DON'T NEED A PIECE OF PAPER TO TELL ME IF A DOG IS "GOOD" (ie: GAME) WHEN BUYING A PUP, I WOULD RATHER KNOW IF THIS LITTER IS A REPEAT BREEDING AND HOW DID THE PREVIOUS LITTER TURN OUT? DID THEY PRODUCE WELL? I WILL TRUST MY BREEDER MORE THAN PAPERS FROM SOME STRANGER. THE STRANGER COULD HAVE BOUGHT THE DOG WITH FAKE PAPERS. A TRUSTED BREEDER WITH PAPERS (A.D.B.A. IS PREFERRED) IS BEST OF COURSE.

 

"Contempt prior to investigation"

 

Please - CAPS unlock - you're giving me a friggin' headache.

 

nope because there just ain't no reason to.a question i ask folks when they ask me why not is how can you improve upon perfection? and thats what a top quailty bulldog is in my opinion perfection.

 

Exactly my opinion. Simply the best dogs of the world. Why experiment?

 

bump........

 

Sorry if the caps gave you a "headache"( sends over aspirin, ice pack and note saying "You can sit this one out, if your head still hurts."), I hope you feel better soon. I realize I came off as knocking Akc / Ukc. I did do more investigating after the "contempt", comment. The registering pratices have changed since I last looked into it. Before the stud books ( back in the day) were closed all that was needed to register was like 7 photos, a handwritten pedigree and a money order. That just didn't appeal to me. To each his own.This was when papers mattered to me , more than the dogs. I still wasn't impressed. I could have faked it. A.D.B.A. was more for me. Your dog had to be born into it. That still didn't ensure that I got a good dog or that someone didn't use a dead dog's paper's on something else. Names 35 - 50 years ago in the dogs bloodline didn't count for as much ,as a breeder who has consistantly turned out the type of dog I was looking for. I can't "look" , at a dog and determine if he has heart or gameness. I could "look"' and tell if it was "blue".
I understand that all breeds must conform to a certain "look", but in reality, pitbull appearance "standards", are as useless as retriever "look"s. If the dog brings you the duck every time he is a "good", retriever. Even if he "look"s, like a boxer, APBT, or shepard. I wouldn't care if one eye was blue, green whatever, or what color he was. I wouldn't care as much about the awards for conformation, as much as I would care about the duck. I am probably off on my own on this, but thats fine by me. If you feel your dog is worth feeding, than to me it is a good dog.
Ask yourselves if Crenshaw, Mayfield, Wood, Giroux, O. Stevens and other greats were concerned with "looks". I doubt they even knew the "conformation" , standards of today or even cared. I don't think the ADBA even has "conformation", standards. Just registering. The ADBA does have conformation events, but they never excluded a dog because of "look"s. They will exclude you if your dogs parents aren't ADBA. I think the Ukc / Akc will exclude non registered dogs as well now. ( I hope)
Ried's CH. Gambler ( Iron Line kennels I think) was the first DUAL champion. Conformation coming after his campaign was over.
If i could have both, heck yeah, I want my dog to be APBT, in and out. If I had to chose one... I'm going for the inside. Just my $.02

 

Thnx for your post. BTW, ADBA does have conformation standards. Basically, in an exagerated example, the conformation standard keeps alaskan sheepdogs from being registered as APBT's. When the UKC was first formed, things were allot different. For one, [] was legal. And when they were writing the conformation standards, they took a look at great pit dogs, and pooled what physical characteristics they had in common, and that became the breed standard. Same w/ADBA. Now you said that things had changed, what I have noticed that has changed, in the standard, is that before the ADBA/UKC had a standard of weight. Now there is none. I believe the standard for weight was that a male should not weigh more than 60#, and a female more than 50#. Now you will not find this in the standard. Does that mean that your dog who weighs 72# is not APBT. Of course not. There have always been a few monsters. Look at Coby's Pincher. Without a standard, you will end up with 120# dogs that are unable to function the way there are supposed to.
You dont like there being a standard, I do. And if we dont breed for standard, we might as well mix anything we want into the gene pool.

 

I agree with your "standards", and as I said the ADBA now has "standards", but I believe they were more based on quality in the beginning. I don't think they were a disqualifying factor. (would J. Crenshaws Ch. Jeep conform? Southern Kennels Gr. Ch. Mayday? Giroux' Ch. Booger < who produced G' Man's "Diamond", who is the dam of Ch. Bonecrusher) I beleive they now have full fledged conformation ( One of my pups offspring "championed*" , (Timber Ridge kennels " *Ch. Simba) in one of these events.( PAYCHECK KENNELS SWEET PEA (DAUGHTER OF SOLO KENNELS (GAMBLE'S ) CHAMPION THUNDER was the dam) Also, as you said [] was legal and the original supporters of the ADBA were []'s. Therefore if the dog in question was a cur, it wasn't getting in the breeding program. I am not "anti-papers", and my feelings have somewhat changed on this issue from my first post, due to my own research, which was inspired by my fellow forum members' post. (Good Job Dogmen! )
I just think if we are not using gameness for standards in breeding, all others issues become moot. ( OK, NOT REALLY MOOT. I FEEL YOU FROM THE CONFORMATION STAND POINT, I HOPE YOU FEEL ME ON THE GAMENESS POINT) This enviorment isn't conducive to game breeding, so we either breed off of established game stock, or to dogs who come from a long lineage of game stock as a supplement.
Now when a breeder totally forgoes the quest for gameness, for conformation purposes, the criteria becomes more objective, than subjective. The objective breeder tends to turn out more (IE: 110lbs Gatti pure Hawaian bluenose blah blah, etc..etc.. no offense to (Atouro) Gatti line, for some reason it just comes to mind.) So some schmoe, gets ADBA/UKC/AKC/ (c.k.c.?) papers and begins breeding 125 lbs mamonths. He feels , this is what the dog should "look" like.
The next breeder says, "no, the ADBA/UKC/AKC/CKC? etc, etc.. says it should look like this." I sit back trying to figure out who is the fool, and who is the one arguing with the fool in public. ( I guess I would be the fool according to them.)
I wonder if the old timers (Colby included) would stand behind a dog that was bred for conformation, over one bred to preform. What were the standards the old timers , who gave us great dogs, used to determine which dogs would carry on thier names and breeding legacy?
My point is, I have had puppies that "look"ed, like riendeer and chewawa's, yet grew into excellent dogs.They "look"ed, great too, after fully maturing. I also knew a fellow with an ADBA dog that "look"ed like a german shepard, yet was very game. (Yo! Mississipi Rick, I'm talking about you and the "Action Man". Bigg UP yourself and "Action".)
The way I see it, conformation doesn't tell you anything more than what the dog "look"s, like. If you are happy with that, by all means, I am happy for you. If you take your "conformation"(objective), bred dog and enter him in say "wieght pulling" (subjective) , I doubt he will beat the dog whose breeder has bred "sucussfully" , purely for wieght pulling. Of course that is in no way stating that a "conformation", bred dog won't ace any event he is put in; and vice a versa. (SEE "REID's Ch. Gambler, first ADBA dual CHAMPION)
My personal opinions of the breeds "conformation", standards are in line with yours. 60lbs male (tops. 60lbs is a lot of "pitbull") yet if "Gatti", or "mugleson", "bloodlines", win conformation "championships", and are registered (ADBA/UKC/AKC/ckc?) who are you (meaning those who only emphasize conformation) to say those dogs aren't Pitbulls?

 

LMAO! hahahaaha.... Please tell me that you are joking. The dog that started the Gotti bloodline looks more like an EB than anything else. Mugleston's dogs come down from that line. Before I go too far, I would like to invite the owner of that kennel here, so that he can defend himself, as that is only fair. BUT, IMHO:

You give me one dog from that guy, his choice, and I'll take ANY APBT up against him in the sport of his choice. I mean weight pulls, hog catching, or conformation. I feel sorry for the dogs that he owns, they are overweight, and probably suffer many ailments, heart problems, etc. because of it. I'm sure he's had a dog die of an anuerism while taking a dookie. That's why I don't consider those dogs APBT by anyone's conformation standards. As a matter of fact, when is the last time that you saw one of these dogs even at a conformation show?

 

How have you never run across any? I have a yard full. All off the same bitch. Biggest one might go 30#.The smallest being 22# fat weight lol. They def. have that terrier look to them but ive got the paperwork to backup what they are. Theyre all heavy Ross' Red Devil/ Cotton's Bullet blood . Most red devil dogs are on the bigger side as he was a catchweight dog himself. So throwbacks lol

 

Well, Mott's APBT, I live in KY, and you live in Ohio, I guess that's why I haven't run across any, you have them all up there, LOL! I have seen a few tight bred Bolio dogs that were in the upper 20's, to low 30's, but at the time they weren't for sell. Post up a pic of your fat 22lber. Thanks, Mouser

 

Your laughing? You made me choke on my own spit with that post. I would love for the Gatti line or Mugleson's people to come here and justify themselves, or at least expose themselves to the numerous potshots that will definately be forthcoming. (Forum rules prevent attacking someone who isn't here to defend themselves). They couldn't pay me to be seen walking thier dogs. I wasn't defending what they are doing , but thier right to do it. What I meant was, if you (those that do) breed for conformation, and thier dogs conform to thier kennel (or personal) standards then what can you (conformation breeders) really say. Especially if the dogs in question win "TITLES". Now if they don't "conform", that is a totally different issue. The issue is subjective, and open to interpretiaton. Right or wrong becomes a matter of opinion. Objective issues are diffirent. Either you do or you don't. Pulling, catching etc. Thats not open to interpretation.

"I'm sure he's had a dog die of an anuerism while taking a dookie. "

That was just too damn funny for me. (subjective)

P.S. Do you know Terry Tillis from Oklahoma City? He has great dog off of CH. Thunder that I bred.

 

If I'm not mistaken, in the old days (pre-1976 of course, and for historical , educational and entertainment purposes only), the breed of animal to compete was never specified, specifically to allow other breeds / species. Competetors only had to match wieght and sex. You could have brought a bear, couger, shark or raccoon provided you met the above criteria. Competetors quickly realized, pound for pound, they got more bang for the buck with APBT. Who would bet on a 45lbs bear, lion or rottwieler against a 45lbs, conditioned match dog? Would they scratch or jump the wall?

 

if its not broke ..dont try and fix it.

 

i have to agree with boogieman on this. unless you are going to dedicate the next seven to ten years developing this breed and breeding it for the traits you desire, whatever tf that may be, why bother. and if you are so damn concerned about the future of pitbulls and think that a smaller pakage is the key, breed english staffies. why fuck with a good thing?

 

Why Would Anyone Want To Mess Up A Good Thing And Make A Mutt??it Would Take An Idot To Do That,but Thats Just My Opinion.