"bluff?"

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And let's not call anybody retarded...Didn't your mother teach you better...

 

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ABK bigger does not ALWAYS mean unhealthy...it can in some cases if you over-do it...There are traditionally large breed dogs such as great dane, irish wolfhound, st. bernard, etc...which have all kinds of joint problems and so on...but no one is going to stop them from being bred. I have a yard full of healthy, correctly proportioned dogs on my yard. Even the ones weighing 75-80lbs. don't look it and are in top condition.

And rocksteady...I will compare dogs to people any day...some dogs have a lot more sense than SOME people...they have feelings just like any person...

 

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Bigger IS always unhealthy. Dogs larger than 60lbs have an overall incidence of hip dysplasia that is three times higher than that of small of medium sized dogs!

I agree that you're not going to get ppl who breed Danes, etc. to stop, but firstly I have to ask - does two wrongs make a right? Last I looked it didn't. Secondly, most breeders of large breeds OFA their stock & use only healthy individuals - something very few big APBT breeders do.

And yes, you are right that dogs of large size have always been around. but these dogs (Dane's, Wolfhounds, etc.) were bred from large base stock, usually the Alaunt. Danes didn't come from a root stock of dogs that were orginally 40lbs & breeders super sized them to get the Dane.

I agree the original RE dogs weren't the freaks we see today, they were normal, UKC type show dogs & his dogs didn't used to be "worthless overpriced mutts." They used to be really nice UKC show dogs. But it's not that way anymore. While you'll still find the occasional nice RE dog, even Dave has gone freakish. I have seen some of his modern RE dogs & they are nothing like what he started out with.

As for the APBT, I think it is a breed, but if you want to believe it is a type, so be it. But again, even if it is a type, there is no room for creation b/c once you start to "create" you break type.

No, APBTs did not pop out of thin air. They are thought by most to be the result of a bulldog & terrier cross. But consider this - when this cross occured these men didn't go about calling their bull terriers Manchester terriers did they? Of course not! Although the Manchester was one of the breeds thought to be used in the creation, the newly created breed was called the Staffordshire Bull Terrier! But under your train of thought they should have called them Manchesters. After all they were created from the Manchester right? But they didn't call them Manchesters. Why? B/c they weren't!

What surprises me is you are obviously a Christian yet you are advocating that "everyone do what is right in his own eyes" - something that is clearly looked down upon in the Bible! Further, I'm sure also you already know, Proverbs 12:10 says "A rightous man regards the life of his beast." So how is one regarding the life of his beast if he is breeding for physical anomlies that are not only unnatural but unhealthy??

As for comparing dogs to humans I have to agree w/ you there - both are living feeling beings that deserve our compassion. That's one reason why it burns me up to see ppl promoting these bluffs. It's not compassionate & it does nothing good for the animal.

 

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I'm sure you can make your example w/o knowing my sexual status.

 

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open mouth insert foot, huh

 

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The APBT does not need to evovle to suit the needs of the general public. Your not promoting a better bred dog...your promoting the "Idea" of what suits you and the general public. This animal was not developed for the general public as you percieve it to be.

Evolution....oh man, that has got to be the lamest Excuse or reasoning to date ...LOL behind ones breeding practices or the Excuse or reasoning of creation of what you claim to own, breed or call an APBT.

Since your a history buff, you tell me what breed has bennifited with the theory of "evolution" ? Not long ago the question of wether or not we are breeding better dogs today than of yester year came up....I said, obviously No... as the practice of breeding away from standard is so common today, these dogs suffer from health and temperment issues that had not plagued the breed as they do today...Yes we practice better medicine these day's,however if you and I were to discuse and compare the differences between a gamebred dog and one that totes the name of the APBT it's apples to oranges as what you are promoting is pre disposed to gennectic faults and health issues. Not to mention they have lost the "physical form" to function to standard.... even if you were to try and bring them to physical peak to function to standard they lack the tools.

What you are promoting is a form of cruelty through poor breeding practices. To breed away from any breeds origanal working standard is a shame and has ruined countless breeds. But yet those that practice this consistantly Excuse their practices as they are doing it for the better of the breed or what suits their "idea" of how ones breed of choice should evovle to.

Gamedog might not be for you....however don't sit back and promote the extinction of my breed for the sake of being "politicly correct" Grow some NUTS and stand up for this breed you claim to fancy

You will NEVER see me make Excuses for my animals....as they are what they are. This breed is not for the general public, Close the circles folks.

Regards.

 

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Ok...you say unhealthy this and unhealthy that...I recall that I just said that some people over-do it...THEY are WRONG...not the BLOODLINE itself... I am not saying do what is right in your own eyes...because you can't call it sin if it is not sinful...breeding for the characteristics you like is not a sin...If my 80lb. dog can withstand rigorous exercise and is labeled healthy by the vet, not you...then what's wrong with that. ANY dog that is not exercised will be unhealthy. Appearance does not tell the whole tale. Tell the people with the 30lb. chihuahuas, not me.

I am not saying that APBT's are Staffs or Bulldogs...All that I am saying is that they were bred down from something else, so don't act like they are brand new and that they are in and of themselves. It kills me to hear true APBT because not every bloodline "looks" a certain way...or doesn't "perform" how you think they should...Cars have change over the years and there are different types, models, etc...Are they not cars? Is a Ford Taurus not a Ford...Not a Car...?

 

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Top condition? I doubght seriously you have any in the condition to standard as they most likely lack the tools to get them there.

Many of the breeds you care to compare have been ruined....and for the sake of Evolution...LOL Breeding to ones "idea' of how a breed should change and suit them is a cruel practice and has ruined countless breeds.

No, animals do not have the ability to think or feel as humans do...that's why we rule them not the other way around.....

Regards

 

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I would like to clarify, not all blues are bad. Blue Steel kennels has some really nice blues & I really fancy the blue dog Rook's Ghost. It's the "bluffs" ppl have problems with.

Also, I do not speak from ignorance - I have owned blues & bred blues. When I was getting started in the breed I had an 83lb M & two 65lbs females. I had to put down my red/blacknose double bred granddaughter of Watchdog's Blu Glory at age 6. I lost her blue daughter Indigo Rose to from cancer at age 4 six mos later. It was heartbreaking. After relating my losses to some fellow "bluffers" I found that a lot of other ppl were having problems too - cancer, dysplasia, elongated soft palates, heart valve problems, auto-immune disorders - & this was before they started breeding for deformed type! Once I found this out I dropped the "bluff" stuff like a bad habit.

During this time I was growing in the game & found out what APBTs are really supposed to be. After the experince I had w/ bluffs & what I know now about the breed I don't think I could bring myself to own a bluff, let alone promote them.

BTW Simms, good post.

 

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Simms- Great Post

Rocksteady- I have not put my foot in my mouth...this is a discussion board...the only thing is I am not using opinion, I am using the facts in which I am equipped with and speaking nothing further than what I know from experience.

 

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I can't beleive that you are gonna make Excuses for this.... Tha't why in any breeding program with any breed there is the need to cull. Your analogy is gross.

Regards.

 

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Hey,,I have been waiting patiently for this part of it,,I will tell my torrid affairs if you all would tell yours

 

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ABK- So true...Some people do mess it up for the whole bloodline...but like i said let them fall on their own...because there are more people out there like me who don't get credit for correct specimens of a bloodline. I hate that some people have strayed from the original "so called" standard of Razor's Edge. Some change is bad...but not all...who calls the shots...I just know that on the boards i have been on...none of the RE breeders sit and talk down on game dogs...only the game dog forums that i have been to do that...i can't speak for all as i said...

 

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I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT...PERSONAL ATTACKS? BUT I GUESS IT'S OKAY TO CALL ME A BAD BREEDER/OVERPOPULATOR THOUGH I AM NONE OF THE ABOVE, AND NO ONE TAKES THE BLAME?

 

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I don't think you you were reffering to my post ....LOL I was replying a response to someone elses post that you might be agreeing with...LOL

Yes, this breed does need to be bound by humans. This breed was developed for man by man.

Regards.

 

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***this matter is handled. You do NOT have to defend yourself nor display personal info in this forum***

As for my Downs syndrome example I see it akin to what ppl are doing to dogs. RE dogs & other like lines are being bred for defects & that is not humane nor productive. The only person who profits is the breeder & his pocketbook.

But I agree we cannot put all RE dogs in the same mold. There is a grandson of Throwin' Knuckles that is a 3xw. But most RE dogs are substandard examples of the breed & the line itself now has little to no redeeming qualities anymore. If you haven't experinced any defects, that's wonderful. But you will. It took me over 6 years for my 1st defect to come calling & I'm telling you as someone who's been there, it isn't worth it. If you've got a defective line, cull it, don't promote it. It's better for everyone involved, to include the dogs.

CatcherT: You are so bad!!

 

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Who here breeds/raises Razor's Edge?

 

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ABK- i'm glad we can agree on something...i'm not here to make trouble or enemies...i am standing behind what i do and others who are doing it right...i know as long as i keep a few "correct" dogs on my yard i can better avoid defects...People should quit while they are ahead with genetic diseases. i don't believe RE is a fad or phase and those who are doing it wrong will fail. I have love for game lines...like i said i've raised them, but i found that most times they are far too dog aggressive to be around what i have. i had them enrolled in training classes and i thought it worked until my other dogs were attacked. Not all game dogs are aggressive...TRUE...but some ARE...so I prefer not to have more than 1 or 2 game dogs. I am not judging any line...only the dogs in which I have had...

 

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I was just making some funnies,,to tbxkennels,,good for you,,me I was in the 70's era,,I won't say anymore,,

 

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I will say there are some correct RE dogs out there, but for every 1 that is, there are 100 that are not. However, the ones that are correct still come from the same root stock as the incorrect ones & thus can carry the same defects even if they do not show it.

And forgive me but I must ask - if you do not like dog aggression why in the world do own pit bulls?? Why not just get AmStaffs instead of trying to re-create the wheel?