badger trial dogs

@ yardboy, you got something to add to that conversation? nah stfu you never seen a european badger drama queen
Concerning the test they use artificial galleries and put a badger in it and then send the dog to see how many times it will go at it. basically how many times the dog will go at it despite the punishment it gets inflicted is what folks want to know. it might be entertaining for some but its not the badger's natural environment. it can't dig and turn away from the dog, galleries aren't as narrow, making it easier for a dog to avoid damage when the badger is charging. it can take hours in the fields and its no easy job for the dog.


with that test i think you get to know how much pain a dog can tolerate, how will it handle the badger, and if it is determined to get this job done.
i wouldn't compare it to a game test according to the pit world though and
i wouldn't consider the same a proven badger dog and a game pit dog. why? because both physically and mentally it is a substantialy different task. different jobs for different dogs.

above ground it sure wouldn't take a long time for a pbt to do the job. makes you feel good to hear that , y'all taking pride in it? lol its obvious. if you feel good with your ego ots all that matters

 

where else would you do it other than above ground? and why has it taken so many pages for you to get to this?

a gallery is a fake manufactured environment so it harly counts yeah? so we agree on that

a bulldog is simply too big to fit properly in a badgers den and would not rightfully be able too back up fast enough or turn around the way a badger could so its an unfair advantage, if the bulldog gets stuck the badger would have an unfair advantage, yeah? good so we agree on that!

and a bulldog would whopp the living shit out of any badger out of its ground yeah? good so we agree on that.

looks like we can agree on everything so we can close this thread down.

 

There would be a lot less fighting going on here if people realized that the term "game" is used to mean very different things in two different sporting dog worlds.

Game and gameness are valid terms used in the earth dog and terrier sporting world. The terms have been used to describe the willingness of a dog to enter into a dangerous situation without regard for potential consequences. They even have their own "gameness" awards - here is an example: http://www.dirt-dog.com/awta/rule_book/cg.cfm

In the world of pit dogs game and gameness refer to that quality in a more extreme manner, and the set up behind testing it is to different standards.

One cannot confuse gameness in the terrier world as meaning the same thing as gameness in the APBT world. I think much of the arguements here come from people not understand that the same word is used in two different sporting circles, and that neither circle is "wrong" about their definition, but that both circles need to realize they are talking about two different traits even if they both are called "game".

So a badger trial can prove if a terrier is game - if you are talking about game as it applies to the sporting terrier world. It would not make a terrier game in the sense an APBT is.

A box dog of the past proves itself game through a scratching match, this would not mean the dog was "game" by the terrier sporting standards, that would make the dog game by the definition of dog matching.

Just because two circles use the same word, does not mean it is interchangeable between worlds. So no, in the terms of this board - a badger test is not a game test. On a terrier board, yes it might be considered that.

 

something i found on the net about gameness

Gameness in England and Ireland"
Here in the United Kingdom, the gameness of dogs has, in most cases been tested with Badger in underground, or in barrels, for the "Teas-Tas- Mor dead game certificate".
<O:pNow the Badger may not seem like much to some people, but when you consider that in the dead game trials within six minutes a badger can take the nose off and take the flesh off a dogs bottom jaw back to his windpipe, and more it gives the man a better idea of the game
A dog must travel 50 feet in an eleven-inch by eleven-inch tunnel in soil and with corners in it, in the time of sixty seconds. He must hit his badger dead silent. If he yields at all, or shows bad temper, he is lifted (hatch door) and broken of his Game and disqualified. If he works well he stays for trial time and is certified. The idea of trials is just to test gameness.<O:p
In under the ground the dog is in the dark, on his belly or back fighting. He cannot avoid punishment like on top where he can manoeuvre himself out of punishment and use his ability over an inferior opponent. In this way he avoids punishment and he can see what he is doing on top. plus, he has the support of the handler. If he comes out of holds in badger work, or makes a turn his days of being worked as a game dog are over and he is either sold or put down. It is a sport for honor not money.
<O:pBut is interesting to note that dogs that have quit working the badger will fight other dogs much heavier than themselves, and take bad abuse from dogs on top and have gone up to 1.5 hours and not quit or lost. This used to be an unsolved question for all of us over here. No, man knew, and still not many man know this truth. Only the ones who were told. Why would a dog when he is schooled for badger work under ground not do six minutes and yet fight a heavier dog and take bad abuse for whatever time? Could it be that the badger game was a harder test for gameness then fighting dogs? There were several attempts to answer it but could not stand up to the truth. In England and Ireland at present a man has to be very careful with working dogs. As the laws of this land make it a prison offence to dig badgers.
<O:pOld Plymouth<O:p</O:p​

 

Nobody here is talking about terriers, we're talking about English and Irish strong dogs (usually SBT, EBT or a cross of the two) and whether it's a valid gametest for these dogs or not.

 

your wrong there damon.i know of several working terriers that did it underground with no help.one was a patterdale,one was a k.c registered wire fox terrier sired by a dog that won crufts,two were glen of imaals,one staff and the rest were bull russels.oh and a 12lb plummer that did it after 30 plus hours down the hole!!!-the patterdale was a 20 plus hour dig too(mini digger involved).I knew most of these dogs owners personally and hunted with them.(not badgers).
dont get me wrong ,your chances of getting a working terrier that good are about the same as winning the lotto.(but they are out there)
In case anyone is interested i saw a badger vs apbt in the open about 6 months ago.I wasnt hunting ,was just out walking the greyhounds when i heard all this frantic barking.Anyhow i came on a few guys digging,to a fox they thought ,but it turned out to be a badger .Once they made contact they used a black pitbull on a lead to draw him.he shook it like a ragdoll ,had they not taken him off the badger wouldnt have lasted 4 minutes although he somehow managed to break the dogs leg
.BY the way i dont know these people just met them out walking.The french called their tour de france cycling champion Bernard Hinault "le blaireau",-the badger on account of his gameness.
There is no disputing that the apbt is king of the pit but underground they cant manouevre so its basically keep doing damage while getting their face ripped open and lumps bitten out of them .SAme goes for most staffs(size wise).So is a badger UNDERGROUND a test for a gamedog-DEFINITELY(a good lurcher could do it above ground).I have been digging with terriers since i was 8 or 9 and have only seen 1 do it.

P.S all accounts of badger killing predate 1973

 

Hows he going to pick him up down a hole?.the whole idea of it was that the dog couldnt use his wrestling skills,fighting in cramped conditions with not much air.all the dog can do is keep biting,getting lumps bitten out of him and slashed to pieces by a foe who never gives up and is in his natural environment or similar.manys the (pit)game dog who curred out to a billy.Did guys like mallen or delaney work badgers because they didnt like them? No they did it because it was a serious test for a dog

 

you do know that the T is EBT and SBT stands for TERRIER right??


i swear some people

 

i think by terrier he means a dog bred to go to ground and bay/bolt fox,i.e patterdale,jrt,lakeland etc

 

Listen mate I've owned and been around working terriers all my life, including patterdales and jack russells, and I'm telling you that none of these terriers can kill an adult badger. Those who say it either live in dreamland or are total bullshitters. I've also owned pits and bull cross lurchers, and when these dogs are put on them singe handed it's not always a done deal like many people believe

 

Exactly.
Seriously budboy was this not obvious to you? :rolleyes:

 

Like i said in my post,youve more chance of winning the lotto than finding one, but they do exist .The patterdale i mentioned was a good 20lbs and had a real bull terrier head on him and killed other dogs as readily as he did badgers.THe fox terrier that did it was obviously some kind of throw back,most of them wont/cant get to ground.Id give you more info ,but anyone can look at this forum.The fox terrier had a JRT at the other side of billy when he did it.percentage wise your best chance of getting a dog that could kill abadger 1 on 1 in his own sett is a wheaten or glen of imaal.
Obviously an apbt or staff is stronger ,but its not much use to him down a tight hole.

 

Sorry mate but I don't believe it

 

i didnt either till i saw it happen

 

In my area it's still allowed to hunt badgers. We have a lot of them.
I've never heard from a serious man that his dog has killed an adult one below, but I have an APBT-female who is able to do it above.
Now I'm looking forward to my Patterdale prospects. If one of them will be able to kill a badger below, I will be the digger-king of the hills.

One of my PT-females (20lbs) has hold her first badger (31lbs) above, for a few minutes, at the age of 10 month.
WEB.DE Foto-Alben

 

we have a lot of them in the uk too unfortunately we have even more anti-hunting idiots so all we can legally hunt with dogs these days is rats and rabbits,and fox can be flushed from ground using terriers as long as its killed with a shotgun

 

No sh*t sherlock - that would be why I said if we were on a ground terrier board the badger test would be considered a game test, but since we are on this board no, a badger test would not be a game test. The OP asked if we would consider the badger trial a game test, and I pretty obviously told him if he were on a different forum asking the same question he would get a different answer, but here gameness means another thing and it doesn't have to do with badger trials....

No reading comprehension at all on these boards anymore I swear - at least people used to be able to understand basic information on this board.....

 

@ blanch
In the 70s, when Germans have been gas foxes, because of rabies, many badgers died, because they had lived in fox burrows, ...and we had only a few around my area. But now we have more than before. Minimum 1 in a week is crossing my way,when I take a walk with my dogs. They wander the gardens and kill domestic rabbits and chickens. A neighbour of me has lost about 40 chickens in one summer. Also they kill dogs. Not far away of my village a friend lost his 40Kg AmStaff, because it tried to catch a badger in the undergrowth. If you don't hunt them, they can make a lot of trouble.
I think they will change the law in UK, when the badger population will grow up too big.
Than you will have a lot of fine work for your dogs .

 

I dont think they will change the law there,because they are governed by idiots and fairys.plus the population of britain is mainly urban,people who wouldnt know a badger if it bit them on the arse.THey are not a rare animal in ireland either,more common now than any time i can ramember in my life.For the people who have only ever had shit dogs and think badgers are unbeatable,there is some good footage of jagd terriers working badgers(legally in bulgaria) on youtube.Arkan von kostoff is the dogs name

 

i hope your right snakewidomski but the amount bleeding heart 'animal lovers' in this country crazy,look on youtube for hunt saboteurs,in 1 video they run over to a fox already caught by the hounds,attack the hounds and throw the fox into the undergrowth,that in there mind is humane releasing an injured vermin species into the wild for a nice slow death :mad: