APBT= Bulldog or terrier

Ok Rock, I'll bite, what would the original purpose of bulldogs have been? Think about it, yeah, folks have fought dogs since they were domesticated, but what was their main purpose? Hunting, and holding, I will agree with you that the average bulldog of today and yesteryear is between 35-50 lbs. It would require a few dogs to get the job done, on most game would it not? Would real game dogs stand for another dog being in their presence in the middle of combat with any kind of game? I don't think so, but rather the original bulldog was very similar to the modern day AB, not the big Johnson's but the standards, they look very similar to any pic of old bulldogs that I have seen. I feel that the modern APBT is a mix of said dog with small scrappy terriers, they got the over whelming grit from the bulldog, and the pure I hate your stinking guts from the terriers. Like you said we wasn't there to know for sure but that's my thoughts on it. Like I said about the book by Mike Homan, A Complete History of Fighting Dogs, its got lots of stories of big old mastiff like dogs and lots of stories of terriers in it, both seemingly here before the fighting dogs we have today. There are loads of pictures in it of small bully looking dogs, and in the Bull Terrier section theres a pic of breeder J.T. Meyler with some Johnson looking bulldogs, and bull terriers. There are lot of old pics with very mixed looking dogs. If any of you have had bulldogs very long you know how determined they are especially when a bitch is in heat, alot didn't kennel dogs, and no telling what got to them sometimes. I'm preaching to the choir here, but look at the oldest pics you can find, what's there head structure look like? Look at the old pics of Boston terriers, and Boxers, both were used to some degree for combat sports. I think a bulldog was more of just a type of dog, like a running dog wasn't just a greyhound, or a hound dog wasn't a walker, but just a dog that was houndy looking and got the job done. Breeds weren't as defined as we have them today. Mouser

 

i read somewhere that the bulldog was crossed with a "white terrier" which is now exsinct..... just a thought, what does a white terrier look like?!

 

Mouser, I agree that breeds werent defined as they are now. The two best dogs in whatever their specialty,in the same area were probably bred together, regardless of "breed". However, generations of essentially, selective breeding, like this, will create a family (or breed) of dogs, similar in structure, conformation, and working abilities.

As for hunting, absolutely gamedogs can focus their drive on its task, with other dogs around. Modern hog-hunting dogs are proof. From what I understand its not a good practice to use started match dogs in the woods, but take the hog out of the picture, and most all of them will hit a dog as quick as anything. I think its alot of the bulldog mentality, on trying to challenge themselves. Why do they jump on the biggest thing they can? Because its fun! Why do dogs get off the chain, and run past 4 bulldogs, to hit the American Bulldog gaurd dog?

I'm finding it hard to argue much, as I think we are pretty much in agreement in thoughts, aside from some very minor details. The pictures you posted, look more bulldog, then terrier to me btw . Shorter snouts, bigger jaws, bigger heads, deeper chests then you see in most terriers, which in my experience are finely boned, with long, pointed muzzles,and a rangy body.

 

Old Eng. White and Bl.&Tan ( Extinct).jpgThis is a White and Black and Tan Terrier.

 

Tje APBT as we call it nowdays has been known by many other names.
Originally there were 3 types of dogs. Scent dogs, used to trail game, bloodhound type. Sight dogs, used to run the game down,greyhound type Catch dogs, used to catch and hold the game, mastill type. From these 3 types all the others have been bred. There has been many crosses as man developed dogs which were better at each task.
You will notice there isn't a terrier in the original 3. They came later.
The catch dog developed into different size dogs used for different size game. In later years the catch dog was used in different sports. Bull baiting, bear baiting, monkey fights, dog fights, and fights against just about any animal that would fight or could be made to defend themselves.
After many years just about all that was left that dogs were matched against were other dogs. They developed into dogs of roughly the same size. Cost of feed, transportation, ease of hiding, strenght for size, and many other factors were involved.
There were crosses to different breeds, terrier being one. These crosses, which very few became successful pit dogs, became the foundation of several breeds. Bull terrier, boston terrier, and several other terrier breeds.
The AB is a recent development. Many of the older dog men will remember when they were being developed. There were many arguments about where they came from and what dogs were used to make them.
There has never been any reason to cross terriers to make the APBT. It didn't increase gameness, it was already there.
The APBT of today is closer to the original catch dogs than any other breed.

 

To me most pitbulls within standard have a terrier body with some lean muscle mass added from bulldogs and about 65-70% bulldog head with terrier influence

......Its jus a perfect mix in its own way

 

Well I wouldn't think about it in % so much, but type. Having messed with pits for 18 yrs, I've seen all body types, some rangy, some very bully. My thoughts are looking back at the pics of old, I see alot of variation in head shape, and body type. It's no doubt that alot of the dogs pictured 100yrs ago, were not pit fighting dogs, but rather dogs of that type. Yes you do see, so that look just like any modern day pit that you see today. I have terriers, and have seen hundreds of them, some very typical terrier builds, and some very bully built, but they might not have had any shot of bullblood for 10 or 12 gens, which would make the bull blood all but bred out right? NO!!!!!! It's got something to do with selective breeding, if you like the bully type, and keep them back to bred, you can in turn bred bully looking terriers that haven't had bull blood in many, many yrs. Case in point, theres a guy on some of the european sites that has a strain of terriers he's been breeding for over 20 yrs, with bull blood put in, in the beginning. Looking at them today, you would think they were mini-pits. It's only because he's found that the bigger boned dogs fair better when hunting fox. Take a minute and look over on the website called Squirrel Dog Central, for Mt. Curs. Cruise through some of their pics and tell me you can't see bull blood in their dogs, and I promise you that they ain't been breeding in pit bulls on purpose, but it's there none the less, and is what causes them running silent for game. Just food for thought. If the truth was known, I wonder how many dogs have a little bit of pit bull in them? American bulldog, english pointer, blue heeler, are just a few that I know about, and I've heard from a very reliable pit man, that he seen some guys bringing their redbone bitch and backing to a rangy pit for more grit in their pups! Mouser

 

I beg to differ, an airdale can kill a badger, no bulldog needed! You are running on speculation, and that is okay. I for one am glad that the bulldog was mixed with the terrier, and BTW the Bulldog is first in the name simply because of.....are you ready for this, .....alphabetical order, not because there is more bulldog in it. Lets see, before the name APBT, they, the folks who were a part of the dog, or at least closer to it than anyone alive today, called it a "50/50", a "half & half", and a "bull & terrier". Hmm. I wonder why?

 

Now, that was what I was waiting on for 3 pages. It is selective breeding exactly. What happens when you breed biggest to biggest? You get a bigger bulldog(APBT) that comes out of standard, so however you liked them(the breeder) is what you bred. Now, as far as not "seeing" the terrier in the dog, what about the traits that were bred in the dog from the terrier family that are unseen? I cant believe that a forum that preaches not breeding site, but the hidden ingredient, would fail to see the ingredient of gameness! I dont care what the 'bulldog' inthusiests say, THE BEST BULLDOG CANNOT COME CLOSE TO A DECENTLY BRED APBT! HANDS DOWN!

So keep your bulldogs to yourself, because the best dog in the world is the American Pitbull Terrier! If that were not so, I would not have them!

Another factor that I have not heard in this little debate is this;

Back in the day, there were land owners, and those who worked on their land. The workers were usually not allowed to own a mastiff type dog. Go study, and you'll see this is true. Can you figure where I am going with this?

 

With a lot of reaearch in the right places you can find several breeds have had an influx of APBT mixed into their bloodlines. Many years ago the AKC made an agreement with several well known kennels. Their breed of dog was becoming weak through many years of breeding only for looks and color. They mixed APBT into the bloodline and were able to register their dogs with AKC. The original mixes were not allowed to be shown to the public, only for breeding purposes. The result was a breed with more disease resistant, a breed with hybrid vigor, and a breed without the inbred faults of the original breed.
These crosses were with the blessing of the AKC to improve their dogs. There have been many crosses that have been kept secret.
I was told by an old dogman that any breed that had brindle as a color had a little bulldog in them.
Back in those day they all called the APBT a bulldog. Later they finally started calling them a pit bull. Very few of the old dogmen ever called a dog an APBT.

 

Alright Pancho, I'm gonna call you on that one, I don't doubt that several breeds do have pit bull influence, but I really don't think that the AKC would condone what your saying, who's your source, and what are the breeds? I will go along with you on the brindle colored dogs having bulldog, I can't think of many that I think wouldn't, maybe basenji's, but who knows, LOL! Anyway, I'd like to see your list. Mouser P.S. When talking to anyone that ain't knowledgeable about APBT's I always refer to mine as bulldogs.

 

I can start the list with the red irish setter. For too many years they were bred for the deep dark red color, long flowing coat, and the look of the show dog. The end result was a very weak dog that was not disease resistant at all.
The AKC got in touch with a few breeders. The APBT or bulldog was used to try and improve the bloodlines. The resulting crossbreeds were registered as red irish setters but were kept as a foundation for a better bloodline.
This was not something recent. I am an old man who has raised pit bulls, bulldogs, for over 40 years. In that time I have been lucky to know many of the "old dogmen" as the younger people call them. Most are gone now and very few left. I am also acquainted with some who have done extensive research on the pit bulls. Wrote a few books, and was in on many of the things that has happened in the history of the pit bull.
There is a lot of difference in the AKC, UKC, and the ADBA nowdays than in the olden days. At one time they cared more for the dogs than now.

 

Yes you are on the right trail.Look at the old Pictures of Boxers, Bostonterriers ,English Bullterriers and so on.....what do you see? Back then they all look like Bulldogs! Why? Because they came out of ouer beloved strains and were used for the same tasks. Later they breed for look and after a few generations and maybe some influence of strange blood (for example Terrierblood) we get English show Bulldogs, show Bullterrier, Boxer etc. Answer me one question. Why is it impossible to get a long haired dog out of a Bulldogline. I ll give you an answer that you maybe dont understand.Without Bulldogblood there wouldnt be no short haired Terrier at all..........

 

Does it really matter? We'll really never know for sure. Just thank God we have them.

 

No it doesn't really matter, but it is interesting none the less. I have currently been studying about Boston terriers, as I posted about sometime back in the history section. Someone put up a book off the internet that you can read and download for free, I would highly recommend it to everyone interested in any kind of bulldog. It has some really great old pictures of early bostons and shows that they were not the mis-shapen faced dogs that we have today. Some good pics of their profiles show them with muzzels just a tad bit shorter than most staffy bulls. As I said earlier in this thread, I think bulldog was a generic name for any dog that could or would catch. They used these dogs to fight bulls, bears, lions and each other. However the addition of terrier blood refined the dogs, and gave them more atheletism. Also dropping the size of the dogs down some from the mastiffs we read about in early history. I for one am looking for the smaller style of dogs, and since no one has them, at least not regularly, I'm planning on breeding up my own.

Mouser

 

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/american-bulldog-types.html
look at painters line and scotts line..

if you click on the left side..on campeiro bulldog...that the original eb..

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/banter-bulldogge.html

now that one trips me out..

 

Thats my idea about old, pure Bulldogs. Well conditioned APBTs from today just look the same way. Dogos, ABs, canario dogos and so on all this dogs are just mastiffs with a good dash Bulldogblood. The Bulldog was all centuries the overriding fighter and hunter, till this day. Some things never change.

 

Are you saying you are going to start a breeding program with size as your major goal? You're going to breed for size?


As for the rest of this thread, I agree that there is more bulldog blood than terrier blood in our modern day APBT's. But, as was already stated, long ago there weren't set breeds and dogs were bred based on ability rather than if they looked similar. So, there were surely dogs that were 50/50 or with higher percentage of terrier blood than bulldog blood. But I'd be willing to bet they were less successful, hence why we have what we have today.

 

Well Pitbull219,
That is exactly what I'm saying. If that's alright with you, that is, LOL! If people didn't breed dogs none of us would have anything. I'm sure that you probably don't support puppy mills, and maybe have never even bred a litter of pups. I've had dogs all my life, and pit bulls, and terriers for over 18-19 yrs. I'm not planning on doing anything in a big scale, just working with what I have and keeping the results, and placing what I don't want to continue on with. Since it is illegal to test for gameness, what do you purpose that people breed for, color, size, conformation, temperment, smarts, did I miss any? If someone tells you that they have a game bred pit bull terrier, and they haven't tested the parents, they are full of bull. I don't get involved in anything illegal, so I will be using the above listed criteria as the things I'm breeding for, of course not in the specific order. I live in the country, and from time to time, my dogs do get a chance to hunt and come in contact with unfriendly animals while guarding the place, so they will get the chance to prove their mettle, but is that game tested? I don't think so and I know that real bulldoggers don't either. I'm glad there are still people that can game test their dogs in various countries, so they will never truly end up the way that most have gone in the states. I would be willing to wager that 8 out of 10 people that have pit bulls will tell you what a great pet that they are, but in the same breath tell you that their dogs are from game stock, the truth is that a 10 min turn loose from the chain don't tell you anything, and that's probably all most ever see. So you have keyboard dog men, and people that want to deny what pit bulls were really bred for, for publicty sake. I want to create a dog that looks, and acts alot like a pit bull, but is in a smaller and easier to handle package. This is still America the land of the free ain't it? I'm just pulling your chain, so don't get alarmed:rolleyes: Mouser
P.S. If anyone is interested in my plans you can PM me, and this ain't a sells pitch, cause I don't have nothing to sell, just looking for exchange of ideals.

 

I think the terrier blood improved the bulldog blood, gave ability,tenacy and the agility the bulldog lacked, a catch dog like the bulldog of old wasnt the best dog on the pit and the terriers were the kings of underground and small game known for their ability and desire to finish the task on tireless for hours facing wild animals and never giving up.

That was the perfect cross but i dont believe on the 50% bulldog/terrier percentage, more like 15%-25% terrier and only selecting the best dogs of those crosses, you can do a selective breeding and mix the best traits from both "breeds" and get the perfect balanced dog, bulldog looking with the improvement of stamina and longer legs for agility and the tenacity&ability add'ed to bulldog courage imo made possible gameness.

I believe on the performance crosses, specially when we talk about "breeds" of old,we are not talkin about pets.. those were WORKING DOGS, no one gave a shit if a dog had terrier or pointer blood as long as the dog did the job.

On other hand,just look at the Dogo Argentino, this breed has like 5 different breeds that are so different but someone with a good breeding plan and years did combine all those good traits into one that excels on his purpose.