APBT= Bulldog or terrier

LOL...i read it like three times and i've got no clue either.

 

i may be the only person on the thread who thinks there is at least 50 % terrier, and you're saying if that were the case the dog would look like an english bulldog????

 

Actually, the English Bulldog we know today is a FAR cry from the bulldog of yesteryears. Today's EB is a severe genetic mutation of what the bulldog originally was done to appease man. This dog in NO WAY represents what the true bulldog looked like. Remember, the true bulldog was & IS a working dog.

 

Exactly! And by adding terrier blood you would go even further away from the short, fat bulldog of today, and have an even more slender and athletic dog. Just to clarify all of this I will put it in plain english. "I never said the modern english bulldog looks like the bulldogs of old!!!"

 

LOL....and I thought my Post is very good....becose I am maybe the only one who is able to read my Post....ok ...lol...i never talked about the english (show) Bulldog. I sayd if the 50-50 stuff had a right then all (real) Bulldogs would look like a English bulli (english Bullterrier). Ok once again...there was never the need to perform Bulldogs with the help of strange blood . He is, was and will ever be the hardcorefighter Nr. 1......If you cross him with a Terrier you will get A W E S O M E Terrier....but not better Bulldogs.....its imposible to get better Bulldogs with the help of strange blood. Bottom line. Wich blood you would use to make a greyhound faster....? Think about that....lol

 

I think mostly Bulldog, from an analisis of language. My dad called Pitbulls "Bulldogs". In the past that was common. Look at old bugsbunny cartoons, the tough "Bulldog", look at sports teams named "Bulldog". Look at the function of a Bulldog.


Now, what breed fits all that? The Pitbulldog. Its just that after bullbaiting and bearbaiting was outlawed the way of testing breeding stock became matching dogs and a touch of terrier was added for wind, IMO.

 

The modern English "Bulldog" is the result of adding in Pug blood and then breeding for squatness.

 

I have been thinking about this since my first post on this thread. Since then, I have concluded that our dogs must be more terrier than Old English Bulldogs.

My first reasoning is that of our standard for size. The old English bulldog was a massive dog and the terrier small in comparison.

Second reasoning factor, the bigger the APBT, ability and gameness become a question. Gameness and ability being the two must important attributes of our breed.

Third reasoning factor, appearance (look) of the modern APBT resembles a terrier more than a "mastiff" type dog (which the Old English Bulldog was).

Thus, IMHO, terrier blood had a tremendous importance in the development of our breed, which in turn produced athletes that are the gamest and best able dog of all breeds. If you want percentages I would say 75/25 (terrier/bulldog) is the best guestimate (although there might have been a few different terrier breeds involved).

 

Actully if you look at old paintings and drawings of the old bulldogs they are almost identical to the modern APBT they more resemble those old time bulldogs than terrier..ALthough each line differs.

 

I respectfully disagree with this. Only after the Greyhound was crossed into the Old English Bulldog did the look change to a more "rangy" look. FYI, the greyhound was added to the gene pool to increase speed.

 

I agree with Bully on this one. Today's APBT look more like the original bulldog than any other breed I have ever seen. Undershot jaws and massive size were not complimentary to being athletic enough for hunting and baiting. There was some slight infusion of terrier after these sports were outlawed and the dogs were used as ratters. The smaller size was also easier for a midevil family to feed and house. I'll search for the paintings and tapestries but the dogs from these appear very much like the gamedog of today. There are plenty of others like myself that believe that the APBT is one of the closest living things to the original bulldog. They might have been recreated as such like many breeds are currently in the state of. There are "working" breeds that are crossed to fix certain problems. I wish Tex was still around because he and I had a very interesting conversation about this.

Regards,

B

 

Greyhounds add air and prey drive. Speed is not the main motive of a cross to a grey hound because once you cross you lose those attributes unless you in essence linebreed on their shape. Greyhounds prey drive is through the roof if you have ever seen a true working greyhound. They also posses tremendous lung capacity for endurance and stamina. The speed is relative to their shape and length/flexibility of their spine. The locomotion of their shape is what makes them fast. This can't be easily crossed into any breed, especially a bulldog breed that has quite the opposite body characteristics. I would argue that the bulldogs of old were much more similar to the APBT of today. I will also go as far as to prove my point by explaining the origin of the Old English Bulldog. They consist of a combo of half English Bulldog and the other half made up of Bullmastiff, American Bulldog and Pit Bull. The breed was developed by David Leavitt. They are recognized by APRI, CKC, OREBA, NKC, CKC. This is not an old breed and is considered fairly modern. Sorry man but your basis of claim is way off I enjoy the debate though!

Kind Regards,

B

 

I think there is more terrier in them, than folks want to admit. If they were a original breed without anything else before the bull and bear baiting ban, then dollars to donuts they added terrier blood for rat, and dog pits. I have a book " A Complete History of Fighting Dogs" by Mike Homan. It's a pretty good read, and he goes into alot of detail. Theres a story in the section on rat dogs, that tells of a guy that owned a rat killing dog, that offered a match to any dog his weight. Don't you figure the best of the rat pits were bred with regular pit fighting dogs? I think they were, and their blood still flows in the veins of our current day dogs. There are still working breeds of terriers that go to ground, or work farms doing the jobs they were bred too do a few hundred years back, if you search the net it's easy to find pics of such dogs. Some of the breeds look enough like small pits, that I would bet most couldn't tell them apart, except their coats. Mouser

 

I stand corrected! Also, I meant to say agility not speed in my statement re greyhounds but that is neither here or there (at this point).

I have no problem being properly corrected. I prefer being corrected now than live a life full of lies.

 

75% Terrier and 25% Bulldog.....hmmmm ok lets look at a dog like Trices Joe or Clarks Tramp or for Example Corvinos Braddock. I would claim they are true Bulldogs, and you would say they have 75-80 % Terrierbllood. Ok now we have to find out wich Terrierblood exactly they used to create this nearly pure Terrier....hmmm lets see...maybe Skye Terrier....or Dandie-Dinmont -Terrier?The Silky Terrier?The Airedale? The Lakeland?...no wait...yes the scotish Terrier! LOL or the Seylham? Cairn Terrier?Ok ok lets stop this....I try once again. Many Terrierbreds wouldnt exist without the help of Bulldogblood....for example the Bedlington or the Kerry blue Terrier...or the Seylham...or the Patterdaile. All this little killers get bite and bodypower from our beloved thouroghblood. Look in my Gallery and you see true Bulldogs(picture from 1730) and then tell me wich kind of Terrierblood you see....none! True Bulldogs look exactly like well conditioned APBTs . Ouer Bulldogs helped many great breds to come alive...they are the real deal! And last not least....if you look at the real old and true Terrierbreds you see no shorthaired dogs....think about the weather in England.....without Bulldogs= NO short haired Terrier.

 

I think that the true apbt was 80% bulldog and 20% terrier. I took these pics from the prior to 20s gallery .This first dog clearly has some terrier blood in him.
This next one looks to have more bull.
My question is was there a standard on how they should be bred. Like is it a male Bulldog and Female terrier, or opposite. Could that have caused changes. Beacause in many hybred animals there different sex choices cause different outcomes. Ex. Hinney and Mule. A hinney is mother donkey father horse. A mule is father donkey mother horse. A Mule is more superior to the hinney in strength,indurance ,speed, intellegene and disease resistance. Also Liger and tigon. The liger has a lion father and tiger mother. The tigon is opposite. But the liger is much bigger than a tigon and Lives longer. Could this be the same in the creation of the Apbt? Like a terrier father would produce more gameness and a bulldog father would produce sronger and harder bite? Any oppinions?

 

first dog looks like i dunno but the other looks like a rangy staff although staffs were ment to look like colby dogs

 

watt kind of terrier did you use . patterdale would be the best

 

Agree with most of this post, but im in a debating mood, and I felt the urge to ask why do you think "theres more terrier in them than most folks want to admit". I, as well as many other working dog fanciers, love game terriers. Give me a good patterdale, or jrt anyday if APBT's are extinct. I like bulldogs also, but a smaller terrier best fits my needs/wants. If I was down South boar hunting, I'm sure I'd have AB's as well. I'm simply asking for the sake of argument, what do you think the reason is, bulldoggers dont want to accept terrier blood in their dogs?

I know there is some terrier in there, but I dont buy into the 50/50 mix theory. I see many more bulldog traits in most dogs, than terrier traits. Also, its quite clear to me the modern day gamedog is very closely related to the bulldogs of old, as depicted in the paintings/portraits of them from the time. Almost identical, except alot of those early dogs had cropped ears, making some appear stockier than they probably were. Theres a (relatively speaking) small variance in weight for what "works" with our dogs. You will occasionally see conditioned 25 lb. females, and 70 lb. males, but the majority of good dogs surely fall somewhere between 35-low 50's on average I'd say. You need the dogs big enough to have a solid structure, capable of withstanding abuse, but it also needs to be small enough to be an efficient athlete, and capable of hour after hour of combat if needed. Even the abnormally small APBT's tend to look more similar to bulldogs imo, than terriers, aside from the overall weight of the specimins being similar. The build, attitude, etc are very similar (APBT vs. Oringinal bulldogs). None of us really know, we can only speculate and guess, but it is always an intresting debate, seeing both sides of the fence present logical hypothesizes.