Any one know about patterdales?

Umm yeah how would I go about contacting from the states?

 

Where I come from we respect our elders.


Most of the folks that write books on dogs would like their breeds to be ancient and have romantic and mysterious origins. Pick up any book on Jack Russell Terriers, for example, and Trump will be presented as the first white foxing terrier on earth -- never mind that the young John Russell selected it for looks alone and had no problem finding another white foxing terrier to mate with it.

The Border Terrier folks have wrapped the story of their dog completely around the axle in an attempt to give it an ancient origin. In fact this breed was created at about the same time as the Kennel Club was created, and it was pulled on to the Kennel Club roles as quickly as could be.

As for the Patterdale Terrier, quite a few people claim one person or another created the dog, and yet all seem quite confused as to the shape of the head. Where did that come from?

In fact it is no mystery, and the true story of the Patterdale is not too deeply buried or very old.

In 1873, the Patterdale and Matterdale hunts were combined to form the Ullswater Foxhounds. In 1879 Joe Bowman (just 22 years old) was made master of the Ullswater, a position he held (with a few short interuptions) until 1924, when he was replaced by Joe Wear who held the position for then next 47 years. Joe Bowman died in 1940 -- one of the most famous huntsmen of all time (there is even a song about him)

Joe Bowman was an early Border Terrier breeder, and he was also the first person to cross up a blue-black Border Terrier with a black and tan Fell Terrier (also called a working Lakeland) to create what he called a Patterdale Terrier.

In Jocelyn Lucas' book, Hunt and Working Terriers, a table at the back notes that the United Hunt prefered a "Lakeland, Patterdale, from J. Boroman's strain (Ullswater kennels)."

In fact, "J. Boroman" is a typo, and the real man was Joe Bowman.

Lucas published his book in 1931, and the information in it was collected between 1925 and 1930. The Patterdale Terrier was clearly a type (if not a widely used type) by the 1920s, and it centered on the Ullswater Hunt and Joe Bowman.

With that knowledge, it was not too difficult a thing (but not too easy either!) to lay a hand on Foxes, Foxhounds & Foxhuning by Richard Clapham, published in 1923. Here we find not only a good picture of Joe Bowman (see top), but the picture reproduced below with caption.

"One of the 'Patterdale' breed."

Now we can see that the "Patterdale" name goes back to at least the Nineteen-teens -- a period just before the Border Terrier (which, like the Patterdale, started out as little more than what we would call today a Fell terrier topday) was pulled into the show ring. To see what Border Terriers looked like in 1915, click here.

At about the time that Joe Bowman was fading out of the dog breeding business, in the 1930s, a young Cyril Breay was stepping up. Breay, like Bowman, had been a Border Terrier breeder.

In the early 1930s Breay met Frank Buck, when Buck rescued one of Breay's dogs that had gotten stuck in a deep rock cleft and Buck -- an expert at dynamite -- had blasted it free.

Bucks own line of dogs at the time were descended from Ullswater terriers kept by Joe Bowman, and Breay and Buck soon became fast friends with Breay breeding black dogs from Frank Buck into his line, and Buck crossing tight Border Terrier coats into his. Over time, the dogs of the two men devolved to a type as lines were crossed and condensed.

Cyril Breay was always adamant that the Patterdale Terrier was not made by crossing in Bull Terrier, and he was not lying. The Patterdale head is no mystery to a border terrier owner - the same broad cranial outlines are evident in both breeds.

Brian Nuttal began breeding Patterdales in the late 1950s, and says that his dogs are very much like those his father kept in the 1930s. It would not surprise me a bit to find that Nuttal's father got his dogs from Bowman, or from intervening hands that had gotten their dogs from Bowman. What is clear is that the Patterdale Terrier was already a recognized type by the time Nuttal's father owned his dogs.

The fact that Joe Bowman started the Patterdale strain and named it takes nothing away from folks like Cyril Breay, Frank Buck and Brian Nuttal, all of whom did quite a lot to popularize the breed, maintain it as a working dog, and perhaps improve and stabilize its looks. It is an easy thing to name a new breed (it's done every day by puppy peddlers), but quite another to find a market and a following for the dogs based on their performance in the field.

I mention all of this (I have told the story before and it is in the book), because I found a rather interesting old obituary on the internet the other day. Note the byline. With some amusement I note that "Greystoke Castle" was (supposedly) the ancestral home of Tarzan:


September 1956
PATTERDALE - One of Ullswaterside’s oldest residents, Mrs. Esther Pattinson, Broadhow, Patterdale, died at the age of 85. Formerly Miss Bowman, Matterdale, she hailed from a noted hunting family — her uncle was the celebrated Joe Bowman, huntsman of the Ullswater foxhounds for 42 years, while her great-grandfather, Joe Dawson, was for many years huntsman of the one-time Matterdale foxhounds. Mrs. Pattinson was only 13 years of age when she was hired as a farm girl, later working at Lyulph’s Tower for Mr. James Wood, who was agent for Lady Mabel Howard, Greystoke Castle.



In the end, it turns out that Joe Bowman was born in Patterdale -- a perfectly good reason for him to give a nod to the spot. It was, no doubt, an added bonus that Patterdale was also the old name of the Hunt that was both his employer and his passion. Finally, it should be noted that Patterdale was also the town where Joseph Dawson Bowman died, at the age of 88.

 

Thanks for that post and history lesson Souldog.

 

You are welcome.

 

From what I'm hearing those are some great little dogs.

 

Nuttall's dogs whether linebred or bred with other lines are still out there today doing what they do best,not only here in the uk but in europe and across the pond . Did you have a bad experience with a Nuttall dog ? A few of the lads i know who keep patts dont get to hung up on pedigrees, but rather on whether the dog is a good worker,i'm not saying they dont keep records,there aim is to breed from workers to get workers if and when they like what they see in their dogs.
No matter what breed of dog there will always be messers and peddlers, its up to you to sift the shit from the genuine,all you need is a little common sense.

 

There is no doubt that Nuttall and Gould have bred some fine dogs but there are also other men who have but keep themselves to themselves. Like any working dog you are best to see the sire and dam working yourself so you know your getting the real thing. Most good dogmen breed for themselves and close friends and if theres any left they may sell the odd one.
There may be some fine dogs imported from genuine dogmen in the USA now but the interest in the breed is building and so will be the demand for importing "real ones of Ken or Brian"
A long time ago there was a lot of genuine dogmen in the UK who had an interest in Pitbulls who read stories of these dogs from across the pond that could do this and that and about the best lines to have. So dogmen from the UK saved up there hard earned cash and started importing these "genuine aces" or so they thought. Im not saying all the dogs that were imported were shit but a large % were. Im sure there were many dogmen in the USA pissing themselves charging top $ for sending unwanted "cur dogs" to the UK.
Genuine dogs are hard to get no matter what the breed or job you want from them. Once money is involved in any breed your fucked. Good luck with the breed in the USA but "what goes around comes around" as they say in the UK

 

Yeah, we say that too NS. So what you're saying is there are going to be those that sends us shit dogs on purpose? Well ain't that a kick in the head... holding grudges from years past, it ain't like it's OUR fault if and when that happend, I know a few people who sent and are planning on sending some damn good dogs over so why would y'all reciprocate by sending bullshit?

 

shakaz good luck to you if you have found a genuine dogman to get terriers from. I dont hold grudges im just stating a fact. What ever country you come from there are dog peddelers who will produce shit dogs and pass them off as real workers. I dont know what you expect from your terrier and what you consider a good worker. Most terriers will work certain quarry but to get a genuine earthdog that will stay on its quarry till dug to is not so easy to get hold of. The likes of Nuttall and Gould have been there and done it and have produced some fine workers but there are also a lot of men living of the back off there dogs, claiming there dogs are bred this way or that way and they are not. Unless you see it for yourself then you have to trust the man who has bred the dog and this is what point I was trying to make. There can be a lot of money made sending dogs overseas and money and dogs dont mix well IMO

 

I would love to own one of these dogs. Besides a true apbt the only other dog i would even consider owning would be a patterdale. They really just start making some noise within the last five years.. At least out here in cali but i wanted to own one for a while to but cant find a good one..

 

have a look at earth dog running dog magazine by david harcombe you can order it over the net they ship world wide it could hold some stuff that might interest you

 

If they wont sell you a Patterdale Terrier for hunting,move on,your talking to the wrong breeders.This breed was born and bred to hunt.It would be cruel not to let it hunt.The'll work everything from Mice to WildBoar,check out Cali Catchers.Iwouldn't give my pups to anything but working homes.Goodluck mate.

 

Well put mate.Nicely condensed information.

 

Your not wrong,the homebred Skipper and other dogs ruined some of these imported 'Aces'.Also about good litters being kept close,given to freinds,and about money and dogs!Well said.

 

That last message was to 'NO SURRENDER'

 

ooops! sorry

 

Hey Capsulecorp did you check out Cali catchers?

 

anyone that thinks some of the modern nuttall dogs are no longer any good are either not getting out with any, listening to biased opinions or plain bullshitting.some of the best dogs around are of nuttall or part nuttall blood and thats a fact.i will not name them as the owners may not want the publicity.some seem to think the modern nuttall dogs are weedy, again i do not understand this, they ain't big but the main studs lof his yard over recent times ike miner, mason etc were hardly weaklings.


i must admit JP is a legend and probably the most respected living terrierman, he is getting on now and rarely breeds but he has always been known for them rough coated strong little terriers

a pic of one of the greatest that ever lived.Tiger

 

you are spot on there sunbeam,i.m.o there is good and bad in every line,when you breed them close the dirt comes to the surface.I know nuttall has in recent times bred with the american market in mind(i.e smaller dogs for smaller burrows) but they are still big enough for anything legal in the u.k.Over here most people dont get too hung up on names/pedigrees, just breed off stock with a few hard seasons work behind them.Getting a patterdale pup myself in a few weeks -cant wait

 

HIYA, Anyone got any info on the Parks,Brightmore terriers? Well said Culabula.In the UK peaple who work their dogs only want a pup of dogs which will work.Not dogs with fancy peds etc.If the dogs shit, its shit,end of.Your mates will rip the piss out you and sure let you know.Terrier works illigal in the UK so you cant waste time carrying shit dogs.Goodluck with the new pup Culabula.