American Freedom KENNELS... DIVINES CASSIUS CLAY BLOOD? REALLY??

First I would like to say that I will not bash this kennel at all because I have no REAL knowledge of them at least when it comes to the quality of their dogs. However, I have talked to my teacher/uncle Nightmare who made Stubblefield's Buddy Gr Ch who knew Pat aka the Godfather RIP personally about the authenticity of Cassius Clay's ped and it came out in our conversation that it's a possibility that Pat never knew who the sire of Cassius Clay was.

According to a interview with Sykes Corvino's Teddy wasn't Cassius Clay's father. So my question is this.. Are they breeding the real deal? Also they American Freedom Kennels state that Cassius was a Corvino dog unless Don Divine didn't know for certain.. would you guys say this is a red flag?

I will not state that this kennel is fraudulent because I cannot stay this due to my lack of knowledge. Since this is a dog discussion i would like to know you guys opinion on the overall quality of dogs from this kennel.

Because I have heard nothing to much about the performance of their dogs with the exception of Voodo and supposedly Tom Steedley bred that dog. though it has Staber blood running through its veins its not a product of the Morgan program just incorporated in it.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=182498

ALL comments are welcome

 

looks like it realy dose

 

I have never heard any bad things about Mike Morgan hanging papers.. But as they say the dogs make the papers not the papers make the dog. But experience is the best teacher and I would like to hear some experiences at least with a thumbs up or down

 

Cassius Clay history, from some one who saw the dog and watch him go........ME!

Cassius Clay was bred by Louis Baker, an old timer around Chicago who drove a taxi.
In old Bloodlines Journals you see his name. He is also known to own Creed's Maggie 2xw. On the original UKC papers of Wise's Sister Sue, Wise's Peggy, Loposay's Bouncer (grandfather of Bass' Cleo) etc. Louis name will be on them.

Now we all know Teddy wasn't bred to his daughter Goldie.
Read 1964 Jan./Feb. issue of Your Friend and Mine and you will read where Teddy died after a match where Sonny matched Teddy into Offer's Tuffy 2xw.
Teddy was 8 years old at the time.
So we all know there is no way he sired those dogs years later.
The question needs to be answered who hung the papers?
Simply answer, who owned the UKC papers of Teddy and Goldie?
Then you will have your answer why Sonny wants the limelight off him.
He owned the papers, he bought dogs off Mrs. Corvino after Joe died and he is the one who litter registered the breeding because single registration was closed at UKC until Fred Miller opened it back up in 1972.

Sonny did this for the dogs like Crazy Mary, etc. who was off Goldie but many believed the sire was Bucky. With Sonny no one was really sure.

A young kid stole a dog from an old man and sold him to Coonie in Chicago. Many who knew the late Tommy Richardson also knows Coonie because they use to be partners in dogs. I believe Coonie is still alive.
I won't state his real name.
The kid told Coonie he found the dog running the street.
No one back then would ever think of buying a stolen dog. Not in Chicago or you would end up at the bottom of Lake Michigan.
Coonie will tell you no one knows how the dog is bred because he doesn't want it known he was associated with a stolen dog, though he was never made aware of it.

The old man the kid stole the dog from, got the dog from Joe Corvino to keep. Joe often placed older dogs with people.
Pat saw the dog Coonie had, Pat knew the dog. Pat went to Louis had him breed Maggie to Coonie's dog and from that litter came Cassius Clay.
Clay's sire was CORVINO'S DUKE!

A few years after I met Pat and the rest, Pat, Sonny and Dick Bell was busted for dog fighting in 1974. It was in a major magazine, I can't recall the name of it but I have it somewhere in the library.
Pat hung tuff. There were rumors why they were acquitted, a grand juror house was burnt, another came up missing and their blood type was found in a rented car in TX. etc. Pat was said to be the person behind it. No one knows for sure. But as one who knew everyone, I did know Sonny wouldn't look cross eyed at Pat!

There was other rumors that Pat, Sonny, etc. was part of Joe Corvino's crew. When they raised the old blacksmith shop 3 or 4 bodies were found and everyone who was associated with Joe was on a watch list in Chicago.
After the bust I remember Sonny ran scared. Got rid of all his dogs, wouldn't talk or see anyone who owned a dog. Sonny stayed out of dogs until the early 1980's when he finally called me again after a story I wrote about Joe appeared in the Gazette responding to a story Pat Patrick wrote about dogmen and Corvino's name was mentioned.

The rat was a reporter who knew someone who got the reporter in the dog game around Chicago in the early 1970's.
The reporters were on Pat's doorstep every day. Heat was on hard.
Pat asked me not to come around so nothing would come our way.
Pat had to get rid of his dogs for a while.
Pat sold Stosh 2xw off Creed's Maggie and Clouse's Stabber.
Pat had for sale 6 dogs he wanted them to go together.
I'm not sure if all 6 made it or not.
One was Cassius Clay and there was Scratch who was a daughter of Flash 2xw (son of Red Devil & Maggie).
There were 4 litter mates.
Ace
Deuce
Aristocrat Red
Cassie.

A man from FL. wanted to buy them, but Pat never cared for him.
So when Pat wouldn't sell the dogs, the man from FL. had someone else buy them for him where he took the dogs back to FL. and later match Clay again, this time into Ch. Strider who Cassius Clay beat. Later on in life at about 9 years old Clay went out to TX. and won over a well known dog.
Some say it was the same dog who beat Barney.
Last time I saw the man from FL. was in 2004 in LA. We talk a bit and I also talked to his son who by now was much older. Every time I talked to the son he always ask me about the guys from Tampa who beat them with a dog I sent them over one of theirs off Bruce and Fancy.
The son said it was like going into their own blood. lol

If you were in dogs before 1975 and hung out around the Chi-town area dogmen what I wrote here today, you would know is the truth.
Many think, well Sonny would know wouldn't he? I mean he was associated with Joe right? His story reads better because there is more bashing in the story...
Well all I can tell you is don't ever bring up Sonny's name around the Corvino household or you might really get disappointed!
Yes, I also knew the Corvino family, Pat, Sonny, etc. and about every known dogman from the 60's and 70's.

Believe what ever you like but you can never say you never read the real story behind Cassius Clay.
Tell which ever story suits your fancy because that will reflect the type of dogman you want to be.
Do your homework before repeating BS.
The Chicago crowd was a tuff crowd to be with. If you could win there, you could win anywhere.
It takes years to find the truth from Chicago dogmen and some never do.
But as one who lived those years and the life and those times, all I can do is tell you how it really happened.
I don't use none of these people's bloodlines so I don't have a dog in this fight Ironline Knls.

 

Hello, Norrod Nightmare here Louise was a sister to Cassius, Bull was a half brother to Cassius. Sonny borrowed Cassius from Pat to go into some guys in the south and he had to get Pat to come over to set him down. Sonny could not get him out the cage and had to call Pat to get the dog out. We all laughed back then only the real dog men would come no extras around. If you were not a dogman you could not come and you had to be sponsored. I believe that Cassius mother was a Red devil bitch or Hemphill I will have to call Coonie to make sure. I believe old man baker a friend of Frank Creed had the bitch.

Did you know Frank Creed?

 

Just gave Coonie a call and according to him Cassius mother was Maggie. In fact Don Divine bought Cassius around 1971-1972. When I first seen him I thought he was Bull. He was a beautiful dark red dog with a black mouth. Sabertooth biggest teeth ever seen on a dog. Jim Hirsch the school teacher who used to advertise in the magazine took me to Pat's. When I seen Cassius I went back to tell Tommy because I thought Bull had got stolen. We used to go there every Sunday Me, Jim and Tommy. Pat, Gullando and Shavonna came down to evanston with a dog and DUKE bit him bad. They came back with another one and third time they came back with Sunny. Next time they came they wanted to breed. After several visit's they sent old man Baker from Wauconda IL to breed. We used to engage them We didnt know they knew old man Baker. We met old man Baker at Frank Creed's. Frank was telling old man Baker about Coonie's dog. If you remember Jim was right there in the Black Smith Shop with Joe Corvino. Pat sent old man Bakers and he came over with a bitch in the car. We were all about 18, 19 and Connie was in his 25. When the litter was born Pat went to Frank Creeds and bought the whole litter.

We used to go to Pats every Sunday. One Sunday we go out to Pats and he had some little puppies running around. Jim asked him how the pups were bred Pat? He laughed and said wouldnt you like to know? I was Cassius, Louise and I cant recall the other pups name. The pups looked just like Duke. Later Louise went to the Fowlers.

Am I right or am I wrong?

Memories from the past

Nightmare neph J_J773

 

Always fun to read the stories of the old days but damn the chicago people were some mean sons of guns with each other and if you weren't from there even worst, lots of good dogs came from there but none of the damn dogs from there have a straight story. Not a single good one has just one story and some things never change even in 2011. LMAO, no matter how time goes by things are still the same like you have no idea. No wonder so many good dogs came from there, their owners were beast their selves back in those days.

 

That write up is from another post written by Norrod.

 

rose is the truth. OP ask your uncle knightmare his opinion of that kennel lol.

 

Sorry sir that is from my uncle Nightmare himself.. We thought you were Norrod when I showed him the post. Ask Norrod if this is his write up or ask him if it is the truth.

 

are you talking about this dog?
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=246829

or another dog?

 

mis read.. i got what you said

 

sonny and pat weren;t the whole taylor street click i know a retired trash man who lived 3 houses north of the black smith shop i'll ask him sometime this week .. i know nothing about it but it sounds like rose knows plenty .. i can ask my ant to go through his boxed archives all 14 of them but then the topic will be over and i like this topic

 

Yes ,everything n/mare said is true.i also knew of the players involved.say hello to (miss piggy) for me.you should remember the food.

 

my uncle wanted me to ask..are we talking about Roy Burke or Eli Bush?

 

my uncle wanted me to ask you did you know Roy Burke?

 

Oh Christ, can't even take a day off with out things being posted all over.
Okay if this is really Nightmare then you should remember the last time you saw MRod with Ready to Rumble and Hockeyman.
Do you remember what you told them where you thought their Red Boy dogs came from. lol

Now we know you knew Pat because you use to go over there.
Yes, Louis Barker was known to MRod.
Remember MRod informed you about the AST of Pat's kennel name Storklind which meant Bodzainowski in English.

BTW his name wasn't Jim Hirst, it was George Hurst and he bought Barker's Jack off Louis and changed his name to Goofy.
And if you ever talked to Gloria, ask her why George never came around Pat's anymore....also ask why he retired from teaching school early.

BTW Rose, the food at Miss Piggy was good down off the Kennedy.
We slide by Bon-Ton's now. ;->

Also "the Crew" information also came from late Jackie Corvino (Joe's son).
This isn't the place to talk about the old days on that subject or information of personally done business of known things that are for sure.

And for the record the information posted wasn't signed I.K. but another name.
And this is how Pat, Frank & Louis told the story and yes, MRod knew Frank. He also knows why Frank let Louis get Maggie. If you knew Frank you would know Ironline Kennels has his old pedigrees and also has the bronze impression of Corvino's Shorty that use to hang over Joe's desk as well the many pictures of Feeley's dogs, the signed picture by Harry Clark of Ch. Sunday with his show news, Corvino's Thunder, Glavin's Pup. ect.

Remember when Louis sold Bob Maggie and Bob would tell people that F..cking Pollock poison her? lol
Bob told Ironman and MRod she had a whole litter in her off Red Devil and they were hard as stones in her belly. :o

Oh anything, D.D. didn't buy Cassius in 1971 0r 1972, Pat sold after him, Sonny and Dick Bell was busted. Remember Otis was still standing at Storklind Kennels.
Remember the deal with Les & Ricky?


Louis was a Taxi Driver and had adds in the old Bloodlines Journal.
The late Tom Fairchild also knew him pretty good. Tom owned Corvino's Iron Will.
The Maggie was bred to was Corvino's Duke. Very few really knew the dog on site or was told the truth.

Yes, Cassius Clay, Burke's Brenda Mae, Sorrell's Crazy Mary, ect. was paper hung and all these weren't done by Pat....

Yes, we all remember when Sonny tried to use the dog and couldn't handle him. lmao.
Ever since then Sonny had nothing good to say about the dog...
Oh and for the record, those interviews that were suppose to by Sonny wasn't.
They were Joe King handle (M), Sonny's kennel boy.
This was addressed in SDJ and Tattoo Ted.

Tommy and MRod was friends because I.K. owned Massie of his dog Creed's Brenda 2xw. Also later on G.H. had a dog off Ch. Bobcat ll and Emperoress, Tommy wanted something like her. He saw her hunt.
In fact when he died he had some farm outs from G.H. and Tommy's daughter wanted thousand from G.H. to get the dogs back.

so goes the life in the dog game......

 

Yes, Burke had other Creed dogs which was bred to Brenda Mae.
You mean Junior, yes but not well.
Live to far away.
Remember the blood Bullworker used from the old blood of Pat from Corvino dogs of J.B.?

 

Click on it to enlarge.

 

it's private if your uncle and yourself live in the aera i'd love to stop by and talk dog for a hour or so