Agree Or Dissagree?

Old Timer you are 100 % R I G H T. What tell us all this true Storys from Rockstar? 1.) Some dogmen made mistakes 2.) Some dogmen made big mistakes. Many on here know Iam not a cull-Friend but in this case if it comes to true manfighter...no mercy! My dogs nearly killed each other, sometimes I jumped like a Pitdog between them....sometimes deep in the night , in the black darkness out there in the woods they grabbed a badger...and I jumped between hem to rescue the poor boy. I was afraid...but not about my dogs...about the badger teeth! Not one time the teeth of my dogs touched me. From my point of view, even the best Bulldog should get a Bullet if he really tend to be a manfighter...in this case, again its a unforgivable fault.

 

the only question i have is that IF manfighters are so regularly culled by dogmen, why are there still so many manfighters that need to be culled (so much so that everyone wants to talk about the manfighters they've culled)? i'm only asking here about dogs bred within the gamedog world - not the dubious "pits" out of the classifieds. it sounds as though there are still a lot of HA dogs being born on the yards of people who are breeding best to best for the most stable temperament ever. if it is something people are regularly dealing with, then it hasn't been eliminated by years of careful breeding, nor does it sound like a rare genetic mutation. i mean, what are the percentages we're talking here of HA dogs that pop up in a carefully controlled gene pool?

 

Well statistically speaking it means there are enough HA dogs in that "carefully controlled gene pool" to be noticed.....by definition then a HA dog is not a "wild point" in this gene pool, it is some what regular to even be noticed, and documented. Interesting point. Makes one think what 14 said has merit...doggers will readily admit they practice culling manfighters, but maybe fewer do than those that say they do...hhhmmmmmmmmm?????

 

it is one of those things that just happens.just something that nature throws your way.it is a very rare instance but when it happens they should be culled.i have had a few in my time not very many for being involved with these animals for over 60 years.it is kind of like mental retardation or down syndrom and such with humans it is one of those things that nature via genes throws at you.some dogmen can go all their lives and not have to cull a dog for being a manbiter but most have to cull at least one.it all depends on what genes go to what animals.the problem isn't if they pop up it is what you do with them when they do.do the right thing and your ok but do thw wrong thing and i don't have to tell you what happens.

 

I have a easy answer for this. Look Dogs like to eat the crap from cows, pigs ,sheeps, horses and humans. I think the reason for that is they eat the crap from her natural victims. A long long time ago we were just wolve food....then we get weapons and we had the brain to domesticate. But from time to time the genes look back...even today and then its time to select.

 

really it has allot to do with standards not being kept by all breeders. And also the introduction of mutt dogs passed off as APBT. The problem is not all that breed cull and genetic flaws get passed on generation to the next. Not all are like Jesse or me. I am sure even you would cull that sort of dog. It just isn't acceptable. There are a few that over look that for one reason or another. But I don't care how game that dog is if it bites me or another person that dog is dead. If it does bite there had better be a good reason, such as the person was attacking a family member or it, or breaking into my house. But if it is just part of that dogs nature it needs to have that nature buried with dirt.

 

Rocky dogs know dogs. They know that pups are pups of the dog breed. Now if they are tollerant of them that is another thing. pup killing isn't a good trait and you sure as hell don't need that kind of dog about.

 

I always thought some dogs were shit eaters because they lacked something in their diet. But he a theory is a theory. I don't like shit eaters. Sorta grosses me out. I know why they roll in dead stuff too. But I don't like that either. I have to wash them. But I am following your concept of getetic traits popping up every so often from the past.

 

Even you???

 

Ya bro even me. especially me! wouldn't you??? I don't know many that would put up with a dog biting and attacking them. I could be wrong, but I would assume you and Idgie wouldn't put up with that either. Not meant as something negative dude. Just that even a nice person would as well. Not just some not always nice person such as me. You understand now?

 

i consider redirected aggression exactly that. you can't take a dog in a pit who bit because of redirected aggresion and call it a manbiter IMO.

as far as byb's breed purebreds.....lol we all know they breed for the traits they want...color, size, blah blah, so how can that be considered purebred? pedigree'd maybe but purebred....no.

 

oh, i've culled 3 manbiters since my last post. we breed them.

seriously though, no disrespect intended to anyone who has had to cull. i'm lucky to not have been faced with that. i've had some grumpy old dogs and i've chosen to deal with some behavioral issues that others might consider HA, but i did not. what bothers me about this discussion is that some newbies or idiots (no-one here) might consider some behaviors (i.e. redirects) human aggression and run out and cull their dogs, when they really have no idea what they are looking at. ignorance is everywhere with this breed, and some people get off on culling. it's really helpful to educate here on what exactly constitutes human aggression/manbiting/manfighting or whatever. i was just asking how often true HA pops up on the yards of serious dogmen working with good blood (not byb's). i think it's a fair question and i appreciate the answers thus far.

 

i agree to disagree on all disagreeing opinions that agree to disagree

 

I certainly agree with this.

 

I don't know what you mean by "temperment" but i'm sure you can breed for looks and size and that "temperment" if you set yourself to it. It would require a more scrutinous selection, but nontheless possible. As far as the dog being true to it's owner well, i guess that all depends how true the owner has been to the dog. with well bred and properly raised animals you shouldn't be concerned about this. some animals will nip to be released, but this is another totally different scenario "if you know what I mean". this is not to be confused with agression. If you stick around the dogs long enough you will know what i mean.

 

that is fair. I have not been faced with it very often. None at all in the past 25 years. But I have had one or two before.
Culling for any reason is a challenge to your heart. Not fun at all.

Aggression as I see it, when it needs to be culled=
That dog sunk his teeth in me. out of anything but fear or in pain ie got caught in a fence, bear clawed him etc. or excitement biting.

Bowing up, growing, showing teeth in a treatening way over any reason other than those mentioned prior.

Biting a child, woman or any other non threatening person.
( do allow if the person was threatening, tresspassing, stealing abusing a dog)

I must be able to handle that dog at all times and it not try to alfa me. I will not and no one should not accept that behavior out of any dog or animal that is a pet. No matter the breed.

If your playing with a dog and it grabs your hand by mistake and not the rope or toy that isn't aggression that is oops. If it latches on and means that shit and does the clamp and shake tearing flesh then that may be aggression. However in play and rough housing you have to evaluate it again in a normal setting. I am not sure if I ever met any one that gets off on culling. But I may have and didn't know it. There are people like that.

What I have seen though is very aggressive dogs overlooked and bred on. Full knowing that dog has some serious human aggressive issues. That is dead wrong. I don't care how game, or good that dog is doing a job, HA isn't acceptable to me period. I have a friend that his arms look like he had put them through razor wire a million times. Dang near every one of his dogs over the past 30 years I have known him were and are freaky aggressive to people, even to him at times as evedent by his scars. I have seen in person his own dogs attack him full and outright. No holds bar. He got mad at me and didn't talk to me for months for shooting one of his dogs that had him down on his back. That dog was going to kill him. He said that was a good dog. I was like shit dude, that dog was far from good but what ever.

Yes there are boundries on what is and what isn't aggression to humans. But once they are crossed I belive it is best to tend to what needs to be done. Not just for your safty. But for the safty of your family, friends, neighbors and future owners of dogs that would be off that dog.

I hope that you never do have to cull a dog for that reason or any other reason. It isn't easy and isn't fun. Sucks bad. But I do hope if it should be done that you do. Or any one else for that matter. I would love to see HA eleminated for good out of the breed. It probably will never happen but it can at least be attempted by those that care and are not out just to pump pups to the public. I know that you and your hubby are not out to pump out pups and I don't worry one second about what you would do if you had too. I know full well you would hate it. Me too.

Oh and Rockstar I want to talk Gigs with you. Maybe see if you and your band could play at some events.

 

I've personally only seen one truly human aggressive dog that a "dogman" owned... who was also bred and not culled. As far as I know, from what I saw of his offspring, none of them turned out to be aggressive toward humans at all.

As for the original topic...

As far as I'm concerned, I don't believe a truly human aggressive dog should be bred at all. But from my limited experience of such dogs, it doesn't seem to be a huge factor in how the pups turn out, although I'm sure if it was bred for or bred without any consideration at all, it would become an issue.

And about the dogs having to be handled by their owner (or handler) and if it bit it was destroyed... as has already been stated, was not always the case. If the owner or handler knew the dog and how it was, the dog could be handled with the utmost care in order to avoid getting bitten. Rarely anything in this breed is as black and white as that... although it is a good lesson to teach to future "breeders" who have absolutely no idea as to what they are breeding. In my opinion, it would be better for the average idiot to cull a dog because of any type of aggression than for one to have absolutely no standard and breed whatever has the reproductive parts to do so.

Nearly any dog will be "true to it's owner," as previously mentioned, as long as it's owner is true to him. The only variable in that situation would be the level of understanding of the dog.