Agree Or Dissagree?

I got a question along those lines, but not quite. (Hope I'm not hijacking.) How do you feel about dogs that will kill puppies? I'm not talking about big, almost-grown pups, but the little guys. I read in a book that prior to the evolution of the "bait dog" theory -- and training dogs by "blooding" them on puppies and kittens -- that many dogmen didn't like dogs that would go after puppies, as they took it as a sign of cowardice. And that on some yards, the puppies would run all over and in and out of chain spots, with the adult dogs never harming them. On the flip side, I was watching a vid on YouTube of these guys showing off some pups, then the pups ran off, at which point the guy said "I hope they aint goin' over to Xena, cuz she'll mess them pups up," or something like that.

 

I'm happy to hear that.
Although it would be a shame if these dogs were culled since they are the foundations of many lines, it is also a shame that the people involved didn't stick to culling dogs with human aggression.

Some of them weren't outright HA, but Bullyson, Virgil, and Zebo were, according to the stories written about them. Chinaman was too supposedly, but I don't know what the circumstances were... I'm a bit more lenient to dogs that redirect their bite when they get that tunnel vision, thinking your the enemy or just an item in biting reach to release some frustration onto.
(There's a Pit/AmBulldog at the shelter I volunteer for that would do this. She'd see another dog and start doing that shivering cry-like thing, so anxious to get at it, and would bite my arm. She never drew blood or anything, in fact, I could barely feel it if I was wearing sleeves. She would also do this to her leash and anything around her.)

I guess this leads me to question just what is genetic and what is complete chance... Bullyson was a cur and a maneater, but he threw a lot of great match dogs and producers with no HA. He is behind a lot of bloodlines. So if it is a genetic thing, wouldn't there be a higher incidence of manbiters in blood like Midnight Cowboy, Honeybunch (Jeep), Chinaman (Frisco), etc. ?

I would also never own a bulldog that was HA but would I buy a pup off of one? I would have to think about it but from what I stated above, it seems to me that the odds of getting one that is HA, is unlikely... so if it were good blood, I'd probably take my chances.

 

[font='Verdana','sans-serif']i have been doing a little research and as you all know everybody agrees that BYB'S breed for looks and size among other things, well in doing that they loose things like temperment right?[/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif']First is what constitutes a BYB? If going by a performance or proven track record…would most not be considered BYB’s within this breed or is a nice pedigree the deciding factor? Second why would they loose something as simplistic as temperament? That’s the most basic thing to achieve in breeding dogs…not hard to pick out a nice dog and breed it to another nice dog.[/font]
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[font='Verdana','sans-serif']well that being said take a bull type dog thats human agressive do you think that the fact that it has at least some true game dog blood in it will keep it from turning on its owner?[/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif']News flash…dogs don’t “turn on their owners”! Having non-game blood or game blood makes zero difference. What it boils down to is the owner and their ability to control their dog. Also many get into trouble when they know little about a breed and their drives only fall in love with the looks of a breed. Rottweilers are great examples…high rank drive typically and most can’t handle them. So being the educated humans they are…they try to change an entire breed to fit their needs versus moving on to a Poodle.[/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/font]
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i mean as far as i know back in the day when dogs were rolling the owner had to be able to grab the dog and if it bit the owner it was destroyed, so is it a coin flip or do you think even a poorly bread dog will be true to its owner but not necessarily other people even family?
[/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif']Human aggression would prevent a dog from meeting the standard in the box…how? Most all dogs will “be true to their owners” the amount of rank drive will dictate if it will change or not.[/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
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Although it would be a shame if these dogs were culled since they are the foundations of many lines, it is also a shame that the people involved didn't stick to culling dogs with human aggression.
[/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif']Hello…if we “humans” culled human aggressive dogs or those with potential, canines wouldn’t exist! The shame is people get breeds of dogs they have no business owning! If you aren’t working or planning on working a “working breed” common sense dictates…you move on and simply admire it in text, not buy the damn thing and instantly change it for the worse.

I'm a bit more lenient to dogs that redirect their bite when they get that tunnel vision, thinking your the enemy or just an item in biting reach to release some frustration onto. [/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif']LoL You went from “it’s a shame people didn’t stick to culling human aggression” to “its okay” within a mere couple of sentences. So a human aggressive dog is a cull, yet a dog that lacks focus and snaps at anything within reach or that touches it-is okay in your world? [/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/font]

[font='Verdana','sans-serif']Bullyson was a cur and a maneater, but he threw a lot of great match dogs and producers with no HA. He is behind a lot of bloodlines. So if it is a genetic thing, wouldn't there be a higher incidence of manbiters in blood like Midnight Cowboy, Honeybunch (Jeep), Chinaman (Frisco), etc. ?[/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][font='Verdana','sans-serif']This is one of the reason this breed is in the toilet…people talk and clueless about what they’re even talking about. The “manbiter” issue is beyond most people’s comprehension! You’d have better odds of getting an “ACE” dog with crawling game parents and grand-parents from PETA, than getting a “manbiter”! A manbiter will bite anything and everything that moves-obviously the dogs you mentioned weren’t that! Another thing…Honeybunch isn’t off Bullyson.

I would also never own a bulldog that was HA but would I buy a pup off of one? I would have to think about it but from what I stated above, it seems to me that the odds of getting one that is HA, is unlikely... so if it were good blood, I'd probably take my chances.[/font]
[font='Verdana','sans-serif']There you go again, started off stating with they should be culled, it’s okay, and to now stating you’d actually own off-spring off them. LoL There’s always been human aggression within the breed and guess what-there always will be. Reason being is; it’s a working breed and needs to meet those standards, not if it will/would get along with Joe down the road. Pet owners care about temperament as they typically marry their dogs, sashay them around town and lack the knowledge to handle most dogs. Given that their main requirement for a dog is sweetness. [/font]

 

to me a dog that goes after pups is in the same boat as a manbiter they get the bullet.it is in fact a sign of weakness and it is not in a bulldogs nature to seek out and kill pups.now sometimes you will get a new mother that will kill some or all of her pups and that is somewhat a diffrent story but the still get a closer eye from me.to me if a dog shows a habit of biting people or killing pups that dog should be destroyed plain and simple.a lot of folks don't thinks so but thats the way i belive and so far it has done me well over the years.

 

i have to say i agree with Texasbulldogs.now i ain't saying your just agreeing to not cause waves or anything but i think your kind of confused about your stand on things or maybe not wording it right.like i said there is a diffrence between a excite biter and a out right manfighter that is just a danger to anyone including the owner.a exicte biter will nip to get you to turn loose,a out and out manfighter will bite you just for the hell of it because he likes it big diffrence.

 

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[font=Verdana','sans-serif]I agree. I hope you don't think I am one of those people.

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Tallie, the mutt I mentioned, should have been put down IMO (but I have no control over the matter unless I steal her from the shelter and shoot her myself which, sorry, I'm not going to do) because she was unpredictable. I think aggression comes in different degrees. Some are acceptable and some aren't in my book and I think everyone's opinion of what is and isn't ok will vary.

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LOL Wow. Ok, now if that is how you define a true "manbiter" then Bullyson was pretty close to it. At least seemingly since I wasn't alive to see him.
But would you please explain your point of view on aggression? Honestly. I am asking because I want to learn from you. I don't want to debate something that I'm not fully understanding, so go ahead teacher! lol I'm not going to take it personal like a few people here have in the past... although, I must say I'm not clueless. I know more than the average person does, but, yeah, I've still got a lot to learn and a lot to experience. I'm only 17, lol, and I have only been aware of gamedogs for the last 3 years, with my only source of information being the computer.

As for Honeybunch not being off Bullyson, I can believe that. I was just going off her pedigree as recorded online. Papers were made up left and right back then to keep the blood a secret. Banjo, Tombstone, Eli, and a few others' peds aren't correct either, supposedly.
[font=Verdana','sans-serif]Who was she off of though?

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Guarding instinct is one thing but I personally just wouldn't own an unpredictable dog. I also wouldn't want a dog, hypothectically, who would bite me in the box, when I'm outside shoveling up his shit or feeding him. Would you?

What I'm curious about is aggression and genetics ...and you didn't seem to touch it. Mind sharing your thoughts and experiences?

 

I'm probably just not getting all my thoughts typed out correctly. :o I've never been one to explain things very well lol.
I completely agree with you about an outright manbiter (extreme human aggression) vs excitement biter (redirected aggression). Like I said in my above post, I think there are degrees of aggression and the consequences of it depend on the owner and the purpose of the dog, among other factors. If someone can handle an aggressive dog responsibly, fine. I only will own, breed, and sell what I am comfortable with and cull the rest.

 

well a excite biter isn't redirecting aggression because he isn't being aggressive,he is just wanting you let let him go.and as a rule they don't even break the skin sometimes the do but most of the time they don't they just want to get loose at that other dog and over the years you will learn how to handle them and know when they are fixin to nip.but like i said myself when it comes to bulldogs i wouldn't own one that is a outright manbiter that takes joy in biting a person.i can handle aggressive dogs and guard dogs and such but to me a bulldog that bites you for the hell of it ain't worth feeding.now on what your selling thats a good start but add to that only breed to better the breed,always make it better never worse and you will be allright.don't rush into it though since your only 17 study and get as much hands on experince as you can before you attempt.think of it this way if you wait 10 years and learn everything you can you will still be under 30 and have a long life with these dogs ahead of you.time is on your side don't become another BYB that is producing a bunch of crap become a breeder that actually does the breed a justice.

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

i agree with this.....

 

I understand what you're saying, but a nip to let him go is still frustration being redirected at you through a bite... I suppose it isn't exactly "aggression" but what would you call it? I guess the term is kind of decieving, but that is always what I've called it.

Trust me, I'm not jumping into things at all. In 9 months or so I'll be starting my "apprenticeship" and get some hands on experience. My mentor will let me know when I'm ready to go off on my own.

 

I said what I had to say in a PM. However I will attempt to show you to more light when we meet in person. I will stay a month. I have a home just south of the bridge and one just a few hours south of that.

 

yeah it can be very frustrating.but it is not because they are being mean or anything like that it is just they want so bad to get at that dog they nip you to say hey damn it let me go.but the more time you spend around these dogs and get hands on with them you will be quicker to see when they are going to do this and you can handle them without even getting a nip.i am very glad to hear you found a mentor and from what i read by Attilla i have a hunch it might be him.if so your in good hands he is very wise with this breed and he is honest as they come.he has my respect as he has many others.i wish you the best of luck in your journey it is going to be a long one but well worth it.

 

No, it's nobody on this board, but thank you for your blessing. I'm not sure who Attila was talking to honestly... I only wish it was me, lol.

 

yes you did say what you had to in pm and it was very usefull info so again thanx ... and i look forward to meeting and having some light shed on this issue im sure it will be a good time ill bring the beer you bring some good stories and we can survey some land lol good times ill see you then

 

Here we go again with the old "man-biters were culled" myth. Not only was it rare in earlier times to cull a man-biter if it could prove its worth in the pit or brood pen, but prior to the 20th century, fighting dogs were often purposefully unsocialized and desensitized in attempts to make them meaner and more aggressive in the box! It was common to keep a dog locked inside a dark room devoid of sensual stimuli for up to two weeks at a time, cutting off all human contact aside from the handler. The old legend about pitdogs "turning on their owners" may have a slight basis in truth, considering how these animals were treated long ago, but even back in those days, reports indicate that it was a rare occurrence.

The willingness -or reluctance- of a dog (of any breed) to bite can almost always be attributed to the environment in which it lives, as opposed to any genetic fault. Most "man-biters" are born of ignorance and carelessness.

Well, you're certainly entitled to believe what you will, but when the 200-year ancestry of a dog dictates a tendency toward dog aggression, it's certainly within the realm of logic and reason to expect such a dog to possess the inclination to kill a pup.

How about rats? Or cats, squirrells, rabbits -any other small furry creature? Since when is a highly developed prey drive a sign of weakness in a bulldog?

 

there is a diffrence between DA and a dog killing pups.a good bulldog with a good head on it's shoulders wouldn't dream of going after pups.so i don't know where you got that from but it is strange.a dog that goes after and kills pups will as a rule cur out in the pit.just like a bully in school they are good at picking on the little kids but when it comes to their own they just can't stand the line.not only is it a sign of weakness but mental unstability and you talk to any serious dogman and you will be told the same thing.now rats,cats,squirrells,rabbits and the like is a diffrent story but putting them creatures in the same boat as a litter of pups just ain't the same thing.from what i gather you know quite a bit about these animals so i am very surprised that you would try and justify a dog that would kill pups because you can go back as long as you want and they were never tolerated at least not by any good dogman.

 

I'm not sure as to how you define "serious dogman," Mr. Old Timer, but those I associate with have names such as Bailey, Garner, Williams, Shipley, Alexander, Kirkland, Waccamaw, Faron, Holcomb, Eppinette, Tant, Burns, Davis, and Jackson, to name a few; and not only do these people expect a loose pup to get killed on their yards, some of them have bred/owned dogs that would just as soon take your leg off as look at you.

 

so i guess the name dropping is supposed to impress me.son i know each of them as well as well as many more.the name dropping does not impress me one bit,but then again i can go into to other names as well like carver,boudreaux,kinard,nelson,lewis,fife,mayfield,colby,heinzel,stratton,ga trahan,patrick, and the list goes on and on but i don't want to get in a pissing match with you.you proved your ignorance already.and as far as the pups go there is a diffrence between a accidental killing and owning a dog that seeks one out but then again your such a mover and shaker in the breed you would know that,you wouldn't need a old internet faker like me to tell you that.

 

First off, I'm not your son. Secondly, most who know me will tell you that I really don't give a fat froggie's ass what people think of me. The last thing in this world I care about is impressing you. You're going on about how "serious dogmen" won't tolerate a dog that kills pups, and I'm simply telling you YOU'RE WRONG. You suggested that if I talk to any of these "serious dogmen" they would tell me "a dog that goes after and kills pups will as a rule cur out in the pit.just like a bully in school they are good at picking on the little kids but when it comes to their own they just can't stand the line.not only is it a sign of weakness but mental unstability." Well guess what? Nobody is telling me that but you. You know why? Because it's one of the dumbest philosophies ever spewed forth.