a good read

this is a post I copyied from another board that I am a member at.(he sounds like he hates the sport but he sounds so passionate)anyway I thought it was a good post.
I had to split it cause it is to large.

 

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1>I'm used to arguing with people who say pitbulls willl ALWAYS win fights with bigger breeds. I say to them "no, sometimes the larger dog will kill the pitbull before it has a chance to show its true fighting ability".
But I feel like I have to defend the pitbull here.
Saying an ovcharka will always beat a pitbull is ridiculous.
If this were true dogmen would be having ovcharka fights and wouldn't even bother with pitbulls.
A pitbull will almost always beat an ovcharka, I agree that it isn't out of the question for an ovcharka to kill a pitbull, but usually the pitbull will win.
The large flock guardians aren't even fighting dogs, and there are quite a few breeds that are likely to beat them on any given occassion.
Flock guardians have many attributes that make them the best flock guardians, one of them is the ability to kill wolves, but they aren't the only dog with this ability, they are the only dogs with the committment to live with sheep and watch over them 24/7 and this is why they are the highest demanded dogs for flock guarding work.
It would take a pitbull longer to kill a wolf than it would one of the flock guardian breeds.
There are numerous reasons why the fighting breeds aren't used as flock guardians. It certainly is not because they aren't tough enough.

You have to give the title of ultimate fighting dog to the pitbull, it would be blasphemy to say it is anything else.
Now I think some of you know that pitbulls are not my favourite breed or anything, this isn't a case of "my breed is the bestest at everything". This is an unbiased viewpoint.
They just are the best fighting dogs, just like german shepherds are the best police dogs, the reason they are used for the type of work they are is because they are the best at it. Its that simple.

You could argue the weight class angle, but flock guardians aren't used in the heavyweight categories anyway. You'll find tosas are or, where they aren't available, bandogs and presa canario's.
Even american bulldogs are used, flock guardians never are. Not from a lack of availability, trust me if they had something going for them they would be used, I'm sure they've been tried, I'm sure every canine imaginable has been tried. But people won't keep trying what doesn't work so the list of breeds used has been narrowed down to what will actually succeed.
Its almost been completely narrowed down to one breed, the pitbull. No other breed can consistently compete.
Its not really a matter of opinion, its proven fact, proven time after time after time etc etc.

The only three serious fighting breeds left are the apbt, the tosa inu and the bully kutta of india.
No these breeds won't always win, but most of the time and if we are going to "rank" breeds these have to be the top 3.
There are also certain lines of american bulldogs and bandogs which are serious competitors.
After that we're running out of options, we have the bull 'n' terriers which no how to scrap better than the average dog, but aren't up there with the serious brawlers, and then we have the big "animal killers"(fila, dogo, flock guardians, presa, boerbell, ddb etc) which aren't actually fighters, but are strong ferocious beasts and can occassionally kill dogs.
I question though, when faced with the technique of real fighting dogs how effective they will be. I think they will land a well placed crushing bite on occassion, but i think usually they will be outmanuveured and outclassed by the true fighters, who are so effective mostly due to their technique and mindset. Not because of muscle mass or bite strength but because they flat out know how to go toe to toe with another canine.

Have you ever seen dogs fight? Don't get the wrong idea, I would never go to an organised dog fight, I wouldn't even piss on the people that do go if they were on fire.
But i own an english bullterrier and a bandog, both intact males, so scraps are inevitable, they both also like fighting other dogs, they like that alot and it is hard to stop them.
I've owned many dogs throughout my life who have gotten into many fights and I have also spent alot of time around areas with lots of dogs where fights happen. I have seen ALOT of spontaneous dogfights is what I'm saying.

Your average dog with no fighting instincts other than the ones nature gave the canine family as a whole will be all caught up in displaying body language and trying to look mean, there are all these dog politics they seem to want to get sorted out and fighting is the absolute last resort. If one does break out they will snap at their opponent with their mouths and maybe use their paws if they really get into it, they will be really fired up and highly strung throughout the ordeal. I've had my share of non-fighting dogs and if they do get into a scrap it will take them a long time to calm down afterwards. They didn't want to fight they kind of had to to "keep face" if you will.
A fighting dog loves to fight, its a completely different scenario, it doesn't get caught up in canine politics, it sees a dog and it wants to hurt it and thats all its thinking about, it doesn't try to look tough, it won't growl or anything they will sometimes actually whimper and cry like a little baby because the leash is stopping them from doing what they really really want to do. They just pull on the leash like crazy, if you are too strong to let them take any slack they will start backing up to get a run up and jump to try and jolt the leash out of your hand. Nearly break their necks in the process.
If they are off leash and a dog shows up, especially a dog with a dominant stride (dog people will know what I mean), they will just sprint at it and they won't go nose to nose for a psyche out contest like other dogs they will just crash tackle their target with their chest and shoulder at top speed.
Actually tackle isn't accurate, the technique I have seen from all the really fight driven dogs I've known is the same, it is a full speed check, just running into the other dog as fast as possible to get it off balance, and in one fluid methodical movement raising to the back feet and wrapping the front legs around the other dogs neck and twisting their own torso sharply in this position to topple the dog over. I certainly am the last person to derive pleasure from animal suffering, but seeing a dog do something it is just so good at in a proffessional seeming way is pretty amazing. The check and the lifting onto back legs is one move, at the end of the sprint right before it hits it starts jumping into its opponent, connecting right on the dot of taking off and in one movement from that spreads it front legs out and wraps them around the other dog(who at this stage is kind of in midair itself and offbalance), then as soon as the attackers back feet touch the ground again, it jerks its torso sideways with opponent wrapped up in arms and brings it to the ground.
First dog I saw do this I assumed was a freak, but i've found that most bull and terrier type dogs will develop this technique.
It seems to be the instincutal technique of the fighting dogs.
The biting begins when the other dog is on the ground usually, and this is where it stops being so athletically inspiring and becomes just bad and wrong. There is a homicidal look about the kind of biting they do that you won't see in most dogs who get into a fight. They are aiming to kill their opponent, not just establish dominance like normal dogs.
You will see this biting in dogs like filas and flock guardians if they are angry. But you will NOT see the methodical wrestling tackling stuff.
I think it must have been something the old brits stumbled onto with the bull and terrier crosses they made for fighting way back. You just won't see it in dogs without the bull and terrier blood.
It totally evens out the weight difference, first dog I saw do it was my first english bullterrier(he might be 60 lbs) I have an english bullterrier now but this was a different one a long time ago.
I thought he was going to die.
One time I was throwing the ball for him in the park and just as he was about to pick up the ball an enormous rotti bounded over the hill with that disgruntled "come on mofo" stare at my bully, he just kept on running straight past the ball, actually picked up pace, the rotti kept cantering towards him at a kind of bouncy jog, obviously displaying dominance, he was calling my bully out in dog language.
At this stage I almost wanted to look away, I thought it was the end, I jogged after my dog almost too scared to run because I would get to the carnage too soon. I didn't consider a possibility other than my dog being killed.
But then the most amazing thing happened, my dog just hit this rotti like a tonne of bricks and tackled it into the grass with a skid and a cloud of lawn clippings, and then started chewing on it like a psychopath. I felt like I had to get my dog off if I was to save the rotti's life, no joke.
I eventually did and this rottie ran off looking back with a terrified look on its face, like it had just escaped from hell.
I'm not making any of this up or even exagerrating on the level of action, it really was insane.

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This is when I became interested in fighting dog types, I never imagined a little bullterrier could beat up a gigantic rottweiler, it fascinated me and I have held that fascination.
I'm totally not into seeing animals hurt, I won't let my dad kill the ants in his own back yard and have even saved cockroaches lives, have never even hit a dog.
If I was interested in seeing a dog lose, if that was the part I focussed on i would be a REALLY sick fuck. Thats a real messed up person right there, my focus is on the winners technique. Its like watching your favourite athlete.
Heaps of mma fans here, you watch to admire the winners style right?... ummm actually thats a bad example, I think we all like seeing the loser lose in mma, so its little different, there's alot about humans that make you want to see them hurt, how could you feel that way about dogs? Like I said it would take a sick twisted perverted type of motherfucker, and that I am not, I just admire outstanding excellence in all its forms.
In real dogfights you can't notice this technique as much anyway, there is less run up and both dogs know the game and will bump off each other and wrestle and twist and grapple together, both will be great at staying on their feet.

I'm way off track here, and making myself sound bad, no dog fight I have ever witnessed has ever been intentional or preventable by me, bar extreme precations like never letting my dog run offlead in the park. I think that would be cruel.
Each new dog I've gotten has gotten in less fights than the dog I had before it, because I've become better at stopping the opportunity for it to happen from arising. But it truelly is hard if you have a dog that loves to fight, they just find a way.

And trying to get back on track here, my point is, this technique is what makes dogs win fights, the calm methodical technique of a fighting dog will beat out power and unbridled aggression most times.
There is a serious difference between a fighting and non-fighting breed, so substantial and noticable is this difference when you see them in action, that weight and size doesn't count for as much as you would think, it can help if you are a great fighter, but if not and size and weight is your only edge over a small but proffessional fighter, you're screwed. Goes for dogs and people.<!-- / message -->

 

okay.......the other "top 3" this guy talks aboutis bullshit......ive seen these tosas in action and they dont fight......they wrestle.......their CURS......they will stop and lay on top of each other.......then the owners have to throw them back into each other for them finish out the 30 minutes.......those tosa's are powerful no doubt.....but on the level of gameness.....and pound for pound ability......NOTHING holds a candle......

 

I'll tell ya what, if you fight your dogs you have no business with them. You are the ones who make pitbulls have a bad rep. I have two so far and they are the sweetest dogs I have ever had.

 

You must not know about this breed, if your dog isn't dog aggressive good for you, But don't break down on something you know nothing about.

 

You say those who "fight" their dogs are giving the breed a bad name, but until a few decades ago they were the only ones with the breed and you sure didn't hear all this hype about the breed. IMO the ones giving the bred a bad name are the backyard breeders, those breeding the big headed 80 lb.+, and a great deal of the common pet owners.

The backyard breeders because they don't give two shits about what they breed as long as it brings them a profit or makes their buddies happy. They do this with no thought of the dogs temperament towards people, so many human aggressive ones slip through.

The professional lg. big headed dog breeders because they are just a more corporate version of the BYB, with higher price dogs.

And last but not least the average pet owners because they have fooled them selves into thinking if they "properly socialize" their pit it won't harm other animals, then when the dogs genetics kick in it gets loose and mauls someones pet and possibly bites an intervening person in the process. These bites happen because none of these "responsible petbull owners" wanted the stigma that goes with a breaking stick.

Meanwhile the dog-fighters have always lived quietly among us, keeping them and their dogs to themselves. So IMO those who actively match dogs are the least responsible for it receiving its reputation of today. And if ownership of these dogs were to magically revert back to being solely owned by the dog-fighters, the hype would just drift away. Hell if even only those who are ready to totally accept the APBT's fighting past and genetics, and the inherent responsibilities that go with them were to own them (ie: chains, breaking sticks, etc.) were to own the breed the hype would disappear.

 

You are the ones who make pitbulls have a bad rep. I have two so far and they are the sweetest dogs I have ever had.[/QUOTE] I disagree.It is people like you that give this dogs a bad name because people like you get these dogs when you know nothing about them and you put them together with other dogs because you think you have trained them well, and one day your pit decides to kill another dog at the dog park or whatever and you are left standing there with a dumb look on your face saying "I don't know what happened,he just snaped"
anyway this thread was not started the debate weither or not fighting your dog is right or wrong,it was just a post saying that pound for pound there is no better fighter than the APBT.

 

Well said Crash97. Could'nt have said it better myself.

 

I agree,good post Crash97

 

You could be in for a rude awakeining. I hope your dog's stay sweet and you never have to witness what they can really do.

 

Well said Crash and JC. I too have wonderful "sweet" pits, but I am sad to say that I have had an unfourtunate incident with a small dog that wandered into the wrong kennel. I was stunned at first since I had never had an "incident/accident" but I do have a APBT and know what they are capable of. With each other and with other dogs. The only thing everyone can do is be "respnsible"