2nd & 14th Amendments

2nd & 14th Amendments

I know that the 14th Amendment has been used successfully in some cases to fight breed specific legislation, however there is at least one other Constitutional Amendment that might be considered as a legal means of preventing breed specific legislation from being passed or enforced.

A few years ago, we owned two good sized dogs, a female boxer and a male Doberman. Both of them were extremely protective of our property (which was their territory). They spent almost all of their time (on nice days) out of doors, were loud and let everyone know that they would protect their territory. Three doors up from us lived two golden retrievers. Two more large breed dogs capable of protecting their territory. They also spent a lot of time outside barking and letting everyone know not to get too near. Now, some people across the street also owned a dog. It was a small "Cocker/cross" that was mostly an indoor animal that usually would bark at people from the door, then wag it's tail and go back into the house.

During this time frame, a company was hired by our county to repave the local residential streets and sidewalks. At the time all of the big dogs let the roadway and concrete workers know without a doubt that they better not get too near or come onto their property or (to phrase it politely) they would be torn the hell up.

Within a few weeks after the sidewalk and street replacement work was completed, the break-ins began. During the day while people were at work, their homes were broken into. In all, fourteen houses were burglarized, including the home where the little cocker/mix, tail wagger lived. They just threw him out the back door while they cleaned out the house. Later, four of the street and sidewalk repair crew employees, who had worked just outside these houses, were arrested for the burglaries and admitted that they had cased the neighborhood while they were working on the street.

My house and the house with the golden retrievers, along with the houses on either sides of our two houses weren't touched. Why? Because the thieves had learned the range that the dogs considered their range of protection. Our houses were "ARMED" with dogs who would defend their territory with their lives and nobody wanted to tangle with the big vicious dogs when empty houses and other houses with woozy dogs were there for the picking.

Both law enforcement and the military both use dogs as a weapon. They are literally used as armaments or "ARMS" in the strictest sense of the word and just like a firearm, knife or sword, they can be used to intimidate, wound or if necessary even kill the bad guy. Recent photos of military dogs being used as weapons of intimidation in military prisons in Iraq are excellent examples of this fact and if a prisoner had attempted to escape, then just like a firearm, these dogs could have been used to threaten, intimidate, hold at bay, wound or even kill the prisoner.

In more one case and in more than one jurisdiction, dogs have been found to have been used as weapons by their owners in both criminal and civil legal actions brought owners of dogs that were involved in attacks against other persons.

The 2nd Amendment II of the US Constitution states "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Although I've been unable locate online, the legal definition of the words "ARM" and "ARMS", Websters Dictionary defines "ARMS" as:
Main Entry: 3arm, Function: noun, Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English armes (plural) weapons, from Old French, from Latin arma.
1 a : a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense ;

So, if an "ARM" is a "weapon," then federal, state and local governmental entities all recognize and use dogs as "ARMS" and with the court systems having established that dogs have been used as ARMS, than dogs are in fact "ARMS" and to deny ownership or possession of dogs by US citizens, based on breed or by any other standard, is a violation of those citizens rights as guaranteed under the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution and the "due process" provisions recognized within the 14th Amendment.

At least twelve thousand years ago man formed a bond with dogs and took them into their caves. For scraps of food and companionship, dogs guarded their owners caves from intruders and instantly sounded the alarm if danger approached. Today, though knowing my husband maintains firearms in the house and that we both know how to effectively use them, I sleep more soundly knowing I'm armed with my two PitBulls and my Staff Bull Terrior each sleeping with one ear always listening for danger, ready to sound the alarm and spring to defend themselves, each other, their adopted human family and their shared territory from any and all intruders.

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

Sounds neat except their are many pacifist trying to take away the 2nd amendment including the UN.

Molon Labe!!

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

Hummmm. I think that could be very counter productive in so far as BSL goes. You have to have a license, that in some places can be very hard to get to carry a gun around in public. Using your argument the state could place all sorts of restrictions on select breeds using the logic of your argument. like mandatory muzzles, safety fences, insurance. That sounds like BSL. The government can and does place restrictions on the use of weapons and the way they are used. Arguing that our dogs are weapons so we have a right to them on 2nd amendment grounds seems like political suicide to me.

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

You can carry a weapon in most states the line is drawn at concealed weapons. A dog being out in the open in a yard isn't concealed Nor is it off personal property. I do have an FFL and a state Concealed hand gun permit. That means in every state and every place that doesn't sell or serve alcohol and federal buildings I can carry my weapons. it cost here $250 for the Concealed hand gun and tax, insurance and bond plus the FFL is about $1500 all said and done well worth the investment. I also pay the $2000 fee to travel through Canada with my weapons. We have the right to keep and bare arms. I am wondering some times just what side your playing from pennsooner? you constantly twist my words and now your attacking the Amendments of the constitution. I don't get you. I am trying real hard to figure you out but I am beginning to think you're with the enemy. Frankly I had to edit my last message to you on another thread because a friend of mine checked me on my anger. And she was right I did and was angry at you for your comment. Now once again you do it to some one else. Just what are you up to. You need to help me understand that your not a passifist willing to us become a socialistic nation. That is a trend. And you seem to fit it. Some times I want to give you positive feed back and other times I want to take a trip to Penn state just to see if your wearing a tan out fit with black and red symbols on the sholders. I just don't do either. I don't give negative only positive. But you have tested my patience. Dude I think your on the wrong side of the fence. We can't bake these people cookies and expect them to be our buddies. We have to fight this war as a war. They are not our friends. And trying to win over those that oppose us is like bedding with the enemy only thing that happens there is you get used and they still poop on you. In fact some of your points come from me. I know I have gave you positive more than once.


Paranoia you are correct about the UN. They want to be the only force in the word with weapons. Martial law and we become peasants. There is the A-C right there. Dictatorship. I was on several missions with them and they don't even abide by the Geneava convention. Not even close it was discusting how they behaved.

I am with you Phebes. Using the law to fight the law makers is very tactfull and a fine tactic to use in this war. You are my new hero. It was a fine and splended post Positive feed back to you.

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

Yeah, but the second you call a dog a weapon, you admit that it is DANGEROUS. Then its a dangerous dog. And regarding concealed weapons, try walking down the street of any city holding say, a loaded shotgun in your hands and see what happens.

The second amendment challenge to BSL is a bad move. It in fact invites it.

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

Lamens terms
Concealed weapon= hidden from view
Open Carry = not hidden from view

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

Attila Magyar<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_146165", true); </SCRIPT>

Do you post on any of the gun forums? I'm at gunsnet.net same name and yes I am a gun fanatic.

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

As a Canadian I find the second and fourteenth amendments concepts of fighting bsl interesting, however, I have to agree with pensooner in his interpretation of how it may play out before the courts.

As I understand it you have the right to bear arms but the government can tell you which armament you can bear. They don't let you roll around town in tanks. You can't have a howitzer trailing behind your vehicle as you motor about the country. Touring about with a machine gun is not an option.

The whole question of pit bulls is to try to get people to perceive the breeds as non-weapons and non-vicious. Any dog will protect its turf. Whether the dog is able to protect its turf is dependent upon its size.

Being a Canadian I am also against guns being handed out willy-nilly as is in the States. When they are in the hands of the wrong guys... bad things happen. They were meant to stave off any invading forces from within or outside the country.

I am a pacifist. This I am up front about. I went to the US in the sixties to join the Marines and fight the dirty commie bastar=s from destroying free choice and freedom. Before I could join my cousins started pointing out inconsistencies in the American involvement and I began to realize that America, in its righteousness of being right, was being duped by criminal South Vietnamese politicians into fighting their war against the North Vietnamese.

What finally turned me against the war an episode that happened in LA that was known as the Century Plaza Riot. LBJ came to visit. People came to protest. The people consisted of professionals, blue collar workers, women wives and children. The exits to the land that they were staging their protest on was cut off by the police and in the name of peace and order they attacked this crowd. Not caring whether there were women and children present they decided to come at the crowd swinging their clubs. Pandemonium ensued.

Women and children were fleeing over the frost fences that surrounded Century Plaza while the men slowed down the progress of the riot squad. It was ugly. In my mind, as a Canadian boy whose father served in the Second World War, these were not the actions of Americans but the actions of Nazis. There were other episodes in other parts of the city and country that occurred on a daily basis which were just like this. In my mind Americans were being turned into what they had fought against since the Revolutionary War.

From that point on I did everything that was in my powers to shut down the war machine in Viet Nam. I never cursed the American soldier because he was doing his duty as he saw it. I cursed the Generals and the politicians for their distortion of the truth that is the American Way. Eventually, the war was stopped. I never considered that America had lost the war. In my mind they had won because were it not for those who were against the war there was a possibility that the war could have been ended like the Japanese War.

America could have wiped them off the face of the earth but they didn't because of the American belief in humanity. Everyone knew that that was not the answer.

If there is one thing that I know about Americans it is that if they are shown that they are being led down the garden path then they will quickly turn it around on whomever is trying to lead them down the path.

What I don't tell people is that I am a pass-a-fist if you think that you are going to bully me into doing whatever it is that you may want me to do as your bidding. It is then that you will find out that I can pass-a-fist from point a to point b and if your head is in the way then it's tough sh-t. In the words of the Dalai Lama, when speaking in metaphor about the Second World War, "If a wild animal attacks you then you must defend yourself or perish".

Any animal(canine) can be considered an armament. To train animals to be thus would only play into the hands of the idiots that propose bsl legislation. They would then be able to say that they were bred to attack.

Gulf Wars? Afghanistan? Iraq? I cheered on the troops and still give them my support until they are all safely home.

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

Hey Pacifier! Sure you’re not from France? Why don’t you babble anti-war crap somewhere else your wasting bandwidth.

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

Let me be clear. I'm very pro-second amendment. People should have the right to defend their home and their self. I just don't want to see that argument applied to dogs in general and Pitbulls in particular. I think it invites rather than discourages government interference in Pet owners rights. The key to stopping BSL is, IMO to make Politicians know that if they trample on Pitbull owners rights, they will be HURT politically. Voted out of office, portrayed as monsters out to kill peoples beloved family pets. The answer to the BSL question is political power. The question is, how do we get it?

 

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I have to agree with pensooter here. And I don't think he's attacking anyone in this thread, I think he argues a valid point. Not to mention, somebody has to become the devils advocate, if everyone just agrees all the time, we all think we're right and we're not ready for the real arguements out in the real world. It is very important, in politics, in law, to look at every angle, because the other guy will. Don't piggyback on an amendment if it's going to leave your ass open for several other attacks. Like the guy from canada was trying to say, at the beginning of his story, just because you umbrella dogs under the same amendmet as guns doesn't mean all the BSL is just going to go away. There are regulations with guns, a lot of them, and I don't think every responsible apbt owner here would be able to get a class 3 gun dealers license just to own their dogs.

 

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No but I will join I will use the same name as well.
Thanks

WB

 

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I wouldn't call my dogs weapons. I am a weapon not my dogs. I was trained to be a weapon with or with out something in my hand. That is a classification the Government put on us. I remember a time that we were under fire for our training and out casts in the 70's even on up to mid 80's or so. Used to really get under my skin.

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

Phebes- did you go to law school or are you just spunky?

 

Re: 2nd & 14th Amendments

Attila, Point taken. A well trained person is far (IMO) more formidable than an attack dog. A dog has one real thing they can do to hurt you, a well trained person, the options are almost limitless.

 

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Well, I couldn't join the service because of a busted ear drum LOL, but I have had a gun drown on me and it made me mad not scared

 

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My friend it always put me into a rage too. That is for sure I was really mad when I got hit with a bullet or any other matter. I put a picture of the Attila ape in my gallery finally. lol you can see what an ape looks like when it shaves around its eye.