Undershot

I have a pup that is a bit undershot. When I first got him his bite was perfect. When his adult teeth started to come in I looked in his mouth to see how it was going and noticed the underbite. He is almost 6 months old right now. Is it possible that he will grow out of this as his face grows? If not what can be done about this? My dogs are used for conformation and I think it might be hard to champion out an undershot dog.

Ferk out

 

You should not be able to champion out an undershot dog. A judge should never place an undershot dog.
Trying to change an undershot is called altering. A dog will be disqualified if they are altered.
The teeth will not change much as the dog matures. If the undershot is noticeable at that age it will probably not improve with age.
Usually when someone chooses a dog for showing they should come from proven show dogs. Inspection of the parents is necessary.
It might be better to choose another dog for showing.

 

I would wait it out and see how the bite looks later. They can change a lot. At his age, it may not correct, but there's always a chance. If he's truly, badly undershot, you will have a tough time trying to finish him. If its only a little bit off, you could try it and see what the judges say. What registry do you plan on showing under?

 

ya pancho where do you get that info from? it sounds a little UKC'ish to me. for the ADBA it doesnt matter if the dog is undershot or over shot but the K-9's must be togther.... a lot of dogs that are bred for the ORIGINAL purpose will have ugly teeth and ugly feet and ears ect.

ADBA doesnt care they like to see aggresivness in the ring and most of all "type" (dog must look APBT from across the ring) and angluation.

damn im glad i took that judging seminar.

 

I showed both in ADBA and UKC. Had champions in both. A dog with bad teeth may place in a fun show. They are mainly just to let the people get used to showing and many times a judge will place the dogs differently that they would ina sanctioned show. In an ADBA or UKC show you won't find any judge that will put up a dog with bad teeth.
Aggression has little to do with dog showing. I have been thrown out of an ADBA dog show for having a dog that was too aggressive. You don't want a dog that shows fear but it is a lot easier to show the good points of a dog that will allow you to use what he has to advantage. You see very few champions that will not allow the owner to show the dog. Many very aggressive dogs have lost points in a show to another dog because the other handler was able to show his dog to his advantage.
A lot of the dogs that were bred for the original purpose died because of breeding faults. Undershot or overshot is hereditary.
Years ago I was a judge. I never placed a dog with bad teeth and never knew a judge that would.
If you are interested in showing a dog in conformation why would you start with a dog with a fault that is so obvious? Bad teeth is just about the first thing a judge will notice when he inspects your dog. Better to start with a dog without any easy to see faults.

 

That's very interesting, Pancho, thanks for sharing. I've been watching at the last few ADBA shows I've been at -- admittedly I've only been going to them since the Nationals were in town last year -- and it seems like a lot of the time, the most aggressive dog in the ring gets picked. I will admit that a lot of the best dogs are very hot, but it seems like people are afraid to control their dogs, as if it might crush the dog's spirit.

As for showing an undershot dog, I don't see anything wrong with JF showing the dog he has so he can get used to the ring. Just don't expect to win with a severe malocclusion since these dogs' bites are important to the original purpose of their breeding.

 

i wouldnt show a dog with any faults at all.. just not kosher as they say ..never know where them faults will take that bloodline you carefully aquired....just an opinion dont take it as negetive feedback ...good luck

 

Usually the first thing that a person notices when they go to an ADBA show is the aggressive dogs. UKC shows are different, they also go over the dogs a lot more than in ADBA. It is possible to use the aggression of a dog to cover some weakness or fault. It will depend on who the judge is if they can see past the aggressiveness and judge the dog. Not all judges are the same.
When a person gets some experience in dog showing they learn how to cover the faults their dog has and how to show off their best points. They also learn how to make the other dogs in the class show their faults.
Just like in the old days, the handler was very important in who won the match. Many a good game dog lost because his handeler wasn't as experienced and didn't have the necessary knowledge. It is the same in the show ring.
Even if there was a way to overcome the undershot or overshot teeth would you really want to breed to him? A confirmation show dog is supposed to be the best of the breed for conformation.

 

pancho.... i still disagree on the "undershot" for the ADBA.

hank greenwood (his dad MADE the standard) stated himself that it doesnt matter as long as the K-9's are togther.........its fine. that was in the JUDGING seminar.

i agree about the UKC tho... its a big fault.

i have a freind that is well known... her dogs have ugly looking teeth but she always wins in the ADBA.

at the ADBA show the most aggresive was also picked as well because thats the strongest trait of the breed....

the most hurtful fault is lack of "vurtue"... thats one of hanks "sayings"

 

well I know in the aadr a undershot jaw is not a major fault being the least important I mean past history show the bite did not matter
I do believe back end is most important you have a week rear end your not gonna place I was told that say you have a dog with great movement angulation nice tail set and great head perfect ears over all is damn near perfect but have a slight undershot its not gonna count against you

 

Its always alright to disagree. That is what makes showing a little more fun. Judges are just like all people. One thing that is important to one isn't that important to the next. It pays to get to know what type of dog each judge prefers and try to show that type under that judge.
I have two friends that are ADBA judges now. Both have been mentioned on this forum. Well respected. They do not agree on dogs at all. One goes more for the pull dogs and will place some one who has pulling dogs over some one that don't. The other spent most of his life matching dogs and will do the same for those who he knows that still test their dogs.
As far as teeth, I once owned a 7xw that didn't have any teeth. Ugliest dog I have ever seen. He never lost. He couldn't be shown in either ADBA or UKC. He wasn't a show dog and many thought he wasn't good for anything else. His pedigree was mostly blank with a few pure bred but unknown, not over 4 named dogs in the whole pedigree.
An ADBA judge handeled him in his first two matches. He would have never even placed the dog in a conformation show.

 

I wouldn't breed to a dog with a worse-than-minor bite fault unless its other characteristics were so awesome that they made it worth the risk. That said, I don't think someone shouldn't try to show their dog because of a fault. Showing isn't necessarily a prelude to breeding. Some dogs are shown but never bred. Likewise, a person shouldn't breed a dog based just on a show championship, so they need to look beyond that anyway and evaluate a potential breeding dog's shortcomings and strengths honestly.

If the dog is that far off, he likely wont win over correct dogs at any rate. I just don't see the harm in letting him try, if for no other reason than to get exposure to the ring. He could neuter the dog and show him in altered classes, but not a lot of shows offer those, at least in UKC.

 

Ive got an undershot champ and his dad is champ with an underbite.But they werent bred for show so it happens.Dont say an undershot dog cant champ because obviously it can.Im not saying you can stick your thumb between the teeth but its undershot by a little.

 

all judges should go by the breed discription it doesnt matter what "they like".... its the rules.....

UKc is much more differnet about that.... i cant stand UKC! LOL

 

As long as the dog is put together, I say show it...Nothin wrong with a dog that will take a strong second either .....that is if, you are going to show adba standard.

 

That would be great if all dog show judges would do that. They are just like everyone else, they have likes and dislikes. They have a favorite size, color, etc.
When I showed in ADBA and UKC I chose a dog for each show according to who was judging. I tried to match what the judge for that day liked. On a 2 day show I might show different dogs each day according to the judge.
Please understand my opinions and experience are coming from several years ago. I have been to very few shows in the last few years. The direction the UKC and the ADBA were going didn't interest me. I couldn't see any improvement in the dogs.
In my experience I have seen a dog win the UKC nationals that had completely false papers. Single dog registered with the ADBA and when the UKC opened their books single dog registered with them. A littlermate to him was a collie type dog, long hair and all. He had ADBA championship points and was used as a pull dog. The owner knew of the false papers as he made them up himself. He just wanted to enter in pulling then got into showing. Never bred the dog as the papers were false even though he was a grand champion.
If you like the dog that is all that matters. Show what you like. I always did, with a lot of losses and a few wins.
It is more important that you like the dog you have. A judges opinion is just that, his opinion. Different judges, different opinions.

 

ya i understand... no arguement here... its just that if it is a good judge they will follow the standard. and the standard says its o.k as long as k-9s are togther.

thats interesting about the false papers...

i got a forum that warns people about these dogs... if you know how the dog was "suposidly" bred you should come tell the story on my board. PM me if so. and anyone else if they have stories like that.

 

That was many years ago. No one knew how the dog was bred. The female was out of florida and wasn't registered. The male was registered but the papers had been lost and they didn't even know what register it was with.
The owner took the pedigree from several dogs and copied a few names from each and single dog registered with the ADBA.
As the dog was never to be bred I saw no reason to complain. There was 5 in the litter, one collie and 4 APBT types. None were ever bred, the bad papers stopped with them. He was only used for the pleasure of the owner. It took a lot of work to make a grand champion.

 

could the female been bred by 2 males to come out with a collie type?

 

Exactly my thoughts diggit, it could of been possibly a dual-sired litter.