Old Irish Staffs

I'm glad you said this, as this kind of exemplifies what I'm going to say

I do not understand how this is difficult, and people have such different opinions. 

Historically, dogs have always been bred for purpose (prior to the Kennel Clubs being established). This meant that different, similar, breeds developed in different areas for different purposes. Close in-breeding then develops a 'type' or 'breed' where they all tend to begin to look similar. 

I'm very close to a number of travellers/gypsies and I know how their working dogs are bred. They're almost exclusively lurchers of one kind or another. They're rarely outcrossed to other breeds unless they're needing a specific trait. They're bred from dogs that can do the business and a winning gypsy 'juk' can be worth a LOT of money

That's all the APBT is. Its essentially a lurcher for a dog fight. It's a scatterbred dog for a specific purpose 

There was no ONE 'English bulldog' until it became a sport of the gentry. 

When that happened people could afford to travel further to find the best dogs. Do you think that bull baiting BEGAN as a sport of the gentry??? It started with working class men that used the biggest, most powerful bandogs (as we would call them today) and gradually breeding the ones that excelled back to each other. The dog named British Bulldog was NEVER 'game' because as soon as they started breeding for 'look' they'd already bred out the 'game'ness.

In my opinion the original bulldog would almost certainly look like the ones seen in a country that only banned bull baiting relatively recently; Spain. I'm 100% that the better English bulldogs of yesteryear would be very similar to the Elano Espanol. 

I hate to break it to you, but the American 'Bull'dog is essentially just another bandog that's been bred from some great big strong powerful dogs for a specific purpose and on and on again 

Once bullbaiting was banned, people needed something else to fulfil their lust for blood sports. Dog fighting was already around and became far more popular because of this. 

The glitz and glam, and showmanship, And more importantly the gambling, became associated with dog fighting.

Guess what happened? The dog fighters needed the best FIGHTING dogs. They didn't give a rats ass for the breed of a dog. They just wanted a good fight. A true Bulldog of that time was strong, but with no wind whatsoever, when compared to the other dogs they used in other bloods sports.

So they crossed bulldogs with other breeds to create fighting dogs that could put on a show. 

They crossed bulldogs with terriers to create bull and terriers. 

Each region had their own versions of fighting or pit Dogs.there was a bull and terrier breed that originated in the Midlands, became popular and eventually became the Staffordshire bull terrier. 

The original English bull terrier would have been just as game as the Staffordshire version. Just a different terrier type used. Case in point; the Pakistanis still breed the original 'Hinks terrier' today.

It goes without saying that the Irish would have crossed with the most game terrier that they knew of at that time. That would have almost certainly been the dog now known as the Irish Terrier. Guess what? They come in red. BOOM! Now you have a strain of 'pit' bull and terriers that have red origins. OFRN is born...

Need stamina in a bulldog? Sheesh, a whippet will do that for you. Breed it back to a bulldog and you have yourselves a blue Paul. 

Now, take all these fighting dogs of the mid 1800's and ship them to a new county. Some dogmen from the midlands will settle in Boston, and breed their bulldogs or 'pit' bull and terriers with the best fighting dogs there. That will include a random mut or two that did well, it will include an OFRN from Ireland and a Blue Paul from Scotland. Before you know it, those specific types of bull and terrier are gone. They're obsolete. Now you have a more 'refined' 'pit' bull and terrier. 

America was the shaolin of the dog fighting world. People came added what they had to the system and passed on again. Thus, the APBT is NOT just well bred Staffordshire terriers. why do you think there's such a range or sizes and shapes within these dogs. To me, the Mayday line looks like it has some sort of coonhound in it from way back when, to give an example. Makes sense, because the Better local bandogs Would have been added to pit mixes as stated before. 

FWIW this is still happening in Cuba? I believe

The only thing for sure is that the APBT has bulldog in its history somewhere. and almost certainly a lot of different terriers from way back when. And probably all other different breeds too. Id bet money on whippet too. 

Theres a story or two of good dogs being gifted to dog fanciers and turning out to be great dogs, and being added to their lineage and breeding programmes. That's sensible and I'd do that too. Who really thinks that those dogs were line bred And their new owners just chanced on them roaming the streets helplessly?

To use an example; Colby would have bred A good fighting dog he obtained. This great fighting dogs mother could have been a bulldog from the southwest of England (which would have been slightly different to the bulldogs of any other Area in England)/white terrier cross, or generation thereof, and its father would have been a bulldog from the northeast and a whippet, or generation there of. He then famously outsourced his breeding to another dog. Which could have been the son of a bulldog from Ireland cross with Irish terrier, or generation thereof. For example 

People like to over complicate it. It's really quite simple 

 

^^Bingo^^

 

Nice read mr Vlad

 

Sounds good.
The Hinks Bull Terrier is bred down from different Terrier type dogs AND different Bull Dog type dogs.
It's just a cheap show type copy.
OFRN is not born in Ireland.
Any proof about any Bulldogs from Ireland ?
Don't know if it's really that simple.

 

Na, the Hinks terrier (EBT) was game as you like. The English used them, the Aussies use them over staff crosses for their pig dogs and the Pakistanis use them. The older generations made a significant impact on any sporting men thy came into contact with.

It's a shame the breeds been ruined now. Lot of man biters, but they can make incredible pets.

The only historical documentation in relation to pit bull and terriers from ireland that I can think of off the top of my head is the addition to the Colby line. There's probably 100 though if you look about.

If you mean actual bulldogs? They were EVERYWHERE in some guise or another. I've heard that an animals meat was worth more if the bulldogs had a go at it whilst it was living, as it tenderised it. Therefore bulldogs would be around almost any farming community or town with a butcher.

Unsure if thats true or not in all honesty. Could be an old wives tale

 

It was against the law at one point to sell the beef if the bull hadn't been baited so all butchers had dogs for this purpose.

 

The Hinks English Bullterrier may have worked for a short time, well, that's at least the minimum I would expect from crossing. But it's more like a one hit wonder.
Pitbulls and Terriers from Ireland sounds better to me. Pitdogs and Terriers sounds even better. And what has Colby's name to do with Irish dogs ? I don't get it. He got some and he used them, and that's all he did. He also used EBT and Bull and Terrier (and most probably more different breeds) in his breeding program. Colby wasn't Irish !
I'm not saying there was no Bulldog in Ireland, but I honestly don't think the Butcher dogs made the foundation for the Irish Old Family (Reds).
I even still think that we are maybe talking about a pure Terrier breed here. At least I believe there is less Bulldog in them Old Family (Reds) as in the Bull And Terrier dogs from England. If it's really ONLY Old Family Reds and not just Old Family, then the Bull Dog influence in them Old Family Reds would be not that easy to explain (BB x bb =Bb = black). The AmStaff people for example don't allow red noses within their breed. What's the reason ? I guess they prefer the old Bull Dog over the feisty Terriers, and the red nose might be a sign of Terriers for them guys. So they cull the reds if they come around.
Is there a connection between them Old Family (Red) dogs and the Old Irish Staff ? I mean, black noses in a breed, strain, bloodline of pure reds (?) clearly shows the cross in them dogs. It's that simple. If it's really OFR insted of OF.
Bull-baiting became illegal, so the dogmen went inside and the Bull Dogs were useless as Pit Dogs (yeah, even the smaller ones of that kind, lol).
So they all did different crosses. The dogfighter used them best Bull Dogs to cross with the best Rat-Pit Terriers they could get. Could be called the original cross that made the foundation of what we have today. Bull Dog x Terrier crosses became popular, so everyone was breeding all kinds of Bulldogs to all kind of Terriers. Cheap copies for all kind of their (own) reasons. And I really can't see a reason for the dogfighters to go back to the Bull Dogs, if the Terriers was what made them work for the pit. I'm sure the first crosses have been made in England (Manchester), but I'm not sure about any crosses on them Irish Old Family (Red) dogs. Could be still possible that the Old Family Reds (Terrier ?) was used as a cross to them old original Bull Dogs in the beginning. That would also explain a couple of more things, but, oh well ...

 

Vlad has hit it for me. Performance dogs have always been about er well performance. They could care less about a pedigree back then. A lot of those colliers and miners couldn't read or write anyway. it was just about getting the job done. Same as today. If dog fighting dies out completely the APBT will eventually become a useless meat burner the same as other breeds that have not been bred with a performance objective.

As for Staffs or any other fighting breed the longer they are bred for performance the better the dogs will become. The longer they are bred for looks or other qualities the fighting qualities will be lost.

 

you quoted a complete fool in hammerhead and it continued in your copy and pasted post,do you think no one else has any idea,some dont read they get there hands dirty

 

Animals were being baited all-over europe,in most towns and most citys had a bull-ring..for this reason,so bulldogs/baiting dogs where in most part's of europe+other places,many of different shapes and sizes..so can one country really claim them...???????????????????????....no...:dog:MAN IT'S BOREING 2-NIGHT..:lipstickpitbullf:........................:animal_plutoe:

 

new to the scene and spotted the thread, but what is a gurr terrier?

 

The english brought some hinks bull terriers to India and they continued to use them threw out the years thus keeping them more of a working dog.thats the story anyway google has loads of info on them.