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Are great dogs made or bred?

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by Andre, May 6, 2019.

  1. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    Made or bred? I was thinking about this same topic a few weeks back during one of those long, deep trains of thought I get while the dogs are screaming at me to hurry up with the feed bucket. One thing kept popping in head as I slowly made it up and down the hill to feed my impatient bunch. I have probably heard it twenty different times about ten different groups of dogs. "That bloodline has not been the same since Such and Such had them." I'm sure anyone who has talked dogs has heard and maybe even seen it too. Is it true and if so why does it happen? My first thought always goes to breeding. You know the usual suspects breeding the wrong dogs, breeding for pretty papers, profit etc. I have convinced myself that this is a major reason why dogs go to shit most times, but clearly not the sole reason. Then I think about how someone can have success with a line of dogs. Then this same person turns around, farms some out and the same dogs look and act like something you bought in a grocery store park lot from some guy calling them blue nosed, colby, gatormouth. That is when the other side of the coins flips around. Such and Such did well with those dogs because he knew those dogs backwards and forwards. He knew what traits were prevalent, are they early starters you need to sit on to save them from themselves, what type of conditioning was needed, what to feed, how to handle, what type set up to house the dog in etc. Probably most importantly they knew how not to screw the dog up. I remember being around a breeder and an upset customer. The guy was pissed because the dog was cold as ice. The breeder sat there and listened to the guy go on and on about all he did to try to get the dog to start and how he wanted his money back plus some for all the time he wasted. The guy who bred the dog then calmly called the other guy the stupidest SOB he ever met and then asked him if he ever thought about trying her in the actual box. So long story short, the dog's switch flipped in the box and now the guy loved her so much he wanted more just like her. The breeder then told him no, because he requires his customers to be smarter than the damn dogs. It turns out the dogs grandmother was the same way.

    I say all that to say I don't know. It probably is degrees of both making the dog and genetics. Sometimes it may be 50/50 and other times 80/20 depending on the talent and knowledge of both dog and man.
     
  2. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    Well, a breeder is a breeder is a breeder ... :D
    Producing dogs is simple, breeding most probably is not. :-?
    Don't know how to explain. But a breeder would understand ;)
     
  3. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    Maybe it's like that ... action people mainly will see only the good things (win) ... breeders also recognize the bad things (brood ?).
    3 good signs and 1 bad sign might be good enough for the action guy, but this can not be good enough for a breeder.
    What area are you talking about ? Any breeders in your area ? Probably not, but let's hear.
     
  4. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog

    They're bred.

    Example Buck... won 2 impressively at the wrong weight in a junkies hands.

    Went to dogmen and won 3 more(one over a gr ch and the stiffest comp in the country).

    He was bred to be a great dog(as were his offspring).

    But would bucks natural ability ever put him in the position to tap out sandman and the rebel? No... it took a proper team mate.

    So both. The wrong handler could've ruined buck, but the right handler made him a legend. Lots of great dogs are ruined by incompetent handlers. Lots of competent handlers can win with the biggest p.o.s. in the world on the right night.

    I tend to agree with slim a lot on the subject..

    The team mate(on either end) can ruin the evening or ruin the other sides evening. But if your lacking either the natural ability or the good handler your swimming upstream in a rough current.
     
    palooka, PlugUgly, david63 and 6 others like this.
  5. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Great post.

    There is no way to prove it or disprove but I think there have been a ton of dogs that could have whooped Buck on his best day with the best teammate. I think there are a ton of dogs who would have/could have stopped the great match bitch Molly Bee. I think there have been a tone of dogs that would have stopped Chinaman, Zebo....etc.et...

    Those dogs were never heard from because they were f'ed up by the 'made' half of the partnership.

    It is somewhat of exaggeration but trying to make a point. It is a team sport. And one half can only take the team so far.

    Most definitely agree with Holocaust's post above.

    S
     
  6. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    upload may fit in here ...
     

    Attached Files:

    BronerFan likes this.
  7. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog


    I wont disagree but $$$, miles, fame or just plain luck stood in their way and buck whipped a hell of a duo to end his career.

    Like any boxer, fighter, bjj player, etc someone out there will punch your time clock. May not get done but theres always someone you can.
     
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  8. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog

    But I wouldn't trade any dogs for the buck dogs I've had. Just saying lol
     
    slim12 likes this.
  9. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    It was meant to be no disrespect to the great Buck dog, nor his prolific ability to produce dogs that went onto produce more dogs.

    More so to make a point about the 'made' part of the debate can break one as well as make one.

    Buck is a great example because he changed hands mid-stream. Genetically he was special because the way he stamped dogs still stands to this day.

    But t the same time if after the first few he had went to a lesser camp who made bad decisions odds are the "Buck" we know would more than likely be another oh-so-ran 3XW.

    And we can plug any dog into that equation, I just picked several famous ones. LOL

    S
     
  10. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog


    Oh no, I knew exactly what you meant and tried to elaborate that the "better" dogs were probably also held back by their teammates and their circumstances not the animals abilities.

    You have said something I found humorous but also true... they cant set the dance, stop by the atm, and drive to the event. If some could they would probably be much better off.
     
    BronerFan, AGK and slim12 like this.
  11. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    The same was said to me about Ch. Caballo.

    "If he could drive and count money, he would be a solo act. He is that good".

    S
     
  12. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    Buck was bred and made. But I think he was 'more' bred than made.
    I found a pic online with Buck on it and don't know in what kind of shape he was, but to me he looks more funny than dangerous. I hope it's big enough to see.
    Would you care much if you would see him in the other corner ? But he did it all ... and probably was not in a hurry :D
     

    Attached Files:

    BronerFan likes this.
  13. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Part of the bred part with Buck is his length and height. I am not sure what his match weight was but I would be willing to bet at whatever weight it was, he stood a head taller than the next.

    I am thinking he big dogged all that was in front of him.

    Gorgeous specimen for riding up and down the road on late on a Saturday night.

    S
     
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  14. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    Battle of Grand Champions says 48# vs GrCh Sandman. Shown before at 46#.
     
    BronerFan likes this.
  15. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog

    46. Reb came in heavy.

    I also dont know how you can "make" dog that has the natural ability to tap a gr ch at 3:17....

    I said all there really was to say on the matter posts ago. He won 2 way heavy with a aids riddled heroin addict as a teammate after being sold to a dr for a house pet. You cant "make" that or I'm sure you already would've
     
    stickler likes this.
  16. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog

    If we wanna talk "made" dogs look at the old mags... who wrote them? Where were the publishers located? Who were their friends? Who were their friends dogs? Etc...

    Certainly some were "made" but not the one that's been mentioned....
     
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  17. Kaos483

    Kaos483 Pup

    I’m a lurker here that does a lot of reading. A LOT. I’m a baby into the dogs. Lots of “book” education with little hands on experience. This was a great read. If it were as easy as genetics and breeding I could have me a great dog. I bought a dog, a very well-bred dog, who I put in the hands of my “mentor” and showed a lot of promise to be a great dog. Unfortunately, lost the dog due to circumstances beyond anyone’s control. That dog never would’ve been a great dog in my hands. I’d have ruined him for sure; however, it would have been a phenomenal learning experience. I’m way late to the dogs and doubt I’ll ever do anything myself. I don’t have the $ or the experience and I’m not getting any younger. Plus I’m too anti-social to put myself out there enough to meet enough people and make enough connections. But I’ve learned enough, thanks to some connections I’ve made through some guidance and my mentor that I’d make a great partner. I have the passion for the dogs and the desire to learn but lack the proper resources or desire to meet people to get the proper resources.

    I’m the person who would make the perfect person for slim or AGK that would support and learn from their work with their dogs and not ‘compete’ for attention since my focus would be on their dogs too. Maybe someday I’ll find me a dog man LOL. I jest. I’ll keep reading and learning and fiddling. Had I been bitten by the bug big earlier in life I have no doubt I’d be fully immersed in the life.

    I got completely off topic. My point was thanks for the excellent read and respect to those immersed in the world. To be successful, the handler/breeder/dogger has to have just as much, if not more, ‘gameness’ than the dogs themselves.
     
  18. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Agreed.

    I think Buck can serve both sides of the debate. He can also it shows that both sides pretty much have to meet full circle for the great success stories to be told/seen.

    I like the looks of most of the Buck dogs. I had a really nice bitch out of Heartbreak Jr. She was a really good female. i bred her back to the Bolio/Red Boy male I had but she was not a good mother. She did awesome til they made some noise. She then splattered seven. I bred her again and we had to hold her down to let them eat. Tending puppies is not my thing, and dealing with that crazy bitch plus swinging 12 hour shift 60+ hours per week was not my idea of good times.

    She was the female version of the Buck dog. Long, tall and narrow but had great pound for pound strength and she looked 6-7 lbs bigger than anything 'her size'.

    S




     
    Holocaust, mccoypitbulls and AGK like this.
  19. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog


    If I can figure out how to send you pics I got one here that "looks his pedigree"...
     
  20. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Sometime a man just get plane dam lucky when it comes to breeding.
     
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