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The Oklahoma Kid Earl Tudor Story

Discussion in 'APBT History' started by Robertosilva, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    There is known Show Bull terriers in Henry's Richmond, being white don't mean they are Bull Terriers , Henry in his early breeding did have some mixes , but he bred away from them , as for Colby I doubt he ever had Bull terrier crosses , I be curious to see what dog of his that has woodcote wonder ? in the pedigree
     
    Soze the killer likes this.
  2. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    there is NO known Bull terrier in Henry's Richmond ,,,I meant to say
     
    Soze the killer likes this.
  3. I think the guy is mistaken with Colby ,,,I think he's on about Henry,,
    Also your the first person I've heard say that Henry started of with mixes @ DR....
    He most certainly did start of with mixes and now I think some of his early dogs had some woodcoat blood in them...I'm not sure witch woodcoat dogs and I really don't no of it was actually woodcoat wonder ....but these wood coat dogs were high up in Mad man's blood..madman being one of Hinks main stud dogs and quite possibly a pure baiting dog from the midlands..
    You read the Hogarth book?
    He makes a point for me,and he says he believes the terrier to be a little over stated ...and I quite agree with Hogarth..so maybe EBTs were just Bulldogs with longish muzzles??....tho Hinkes son Carlton stated in a publication long after his father's death that his dad added white terrier and Dalmatian...his son should no.but what a wierd mix.......

    my guess is there were pit dogs with longish muzzels long before Hinks came along with his show EBT,,and the type Hinks liked were this long muzzle type and he set out and could easily find this type all around him..he used this type in his breeding programs...and it just might also be that,the type Hinks liked was similar in type to the one and only Henry's Richmond...who was imported to the state's from around the Birmingham area...and that's the reason Richmond looks the way he dose.not coz he's a EBT,but coz he's the type Hinks based his EBT s on???

    Hope that makes sense?
     
    caineandroxi likes this.
  4. I've always thought that..being white or having a longish muzzle don't mean they had EBT in them...

    Many Alken prints show dogs what are white with longish muzzle.
    Also the print of "scotch terrier and bulldog" show one of the dogs (the scotch dog)with a longish muzzle and white in colour..but we don't say that dog has EBT influence..

    Good topic.and it seems the EBT from Henry's day was a lot better from any modern specimens.also in Hogarths book,he says many "throwbacks" come out of show stock..he means throwbacks to pit dogs of course..witch points out that Hinks dogs were not far from Pit stock.........just a thought.lol.
     
  5. Box Bulldog

    Box Bulldog Top Dog

    I think your all thinking to deep into this. I don't think the old timers cared much about what breed of dog they were breeding to as long as the dog had something to offer. I think the pit bulldogs that we know today are a mix of English Staffs, English Bulldogs, English Bull terriers, Terriers ec. And probably more. I wouldn't be surprised If there is some type of long legged hound in the mix to in the American dogs. Look at Colbys twister (My Favorite Colby dog) were did that dog get those long legs from? At the end of the day they bred what worked. One of my favorite dog breeds the Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog is a English white bulldog bred to hunting dogs bred to cattle dogs. Still has that bulldog look but has characteristics of the others as well. The breed was made in the South by breeding what worked for the task at hand. And they can still do the task today and there damn good at it.
     
    Fl0w likes this.
  6. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    they ware always varied , only show dogs have a uniform conformation ,,same with APBT to day , some are stock , some short and thick set , other racy . some long legged ..
     
    Soze the killer, AGK and Box Bulldog like this.
  7. I get what ya saying @ BB....but I think the old timers really did care about what they bred..I think any I one who was serious back then would of been serious in there breeding programs......

    Just because Colby Twisted got long legs don't mean he's got hound blood....what would be the point in adding hound blood???

    there appearances look curious to some one who don't no better...
    one of the first thing I noticed with this breed is don't be fooled by how they look...and there is a huge variation in appearance.this variation can be explained not because they all kinds in them ..but quite simply because form always function..always.
     
    Box Bulldog likes this.
  8. Sorry for the typo error!

    Form always follows function,,that's meant to say.
     
  9. stickler

    stickler Banned

    EBT is English White Terrier (?) x Bulldog.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_White_Terrier
    Guess it was 'just another' Terrier x Bulldog cross, that worked well for Hinks.
    Lots of Terriers have that longer muzzle. Lots of them are from the british isles.
    Airdale, Scottish, Fox, Welsh, Irish, Kerry Blue, Lakeland, Bedlington.
    Maybe color means nothing, but it for sure can sometimes tell from where the wind is blowing.

    SBTs and (english) pit dogs are just different Terrier x Bulldog crosses. And the best working cross produced the pit-foundation.
    I believe the best Terrier x Bulldog crosses came from proven rat-pit-family bred Terriers. Or something like that.

    And I also still believe, that the irish old family dogs are different bred compared to the 'english bred' dogs, with less Bulldog, or none at all.
    A pure rat pit breed ? LOL Why not.
     
  10. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    This don't amount to much but I figured I would tell it .I got some Jack Russell's and first litter I had they all had short snouts and a bulldog looking head.I said well I be dam one of my Bulldogs must have bred to this female Jack but I figured it was impossible because she was never loose and neither was the bulldogs ..lol long story short around 4 weeks or so the snout started to get longer and everything was looking good.What a relief that was !They all born like that short snout.I just assumed they was born with a long snout.
     
  11. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    A lot of people believe Terrier x Bull dogs , was the history of the white show Bull terrier , pit dogs (Bulldogs ) ware crossed with white terriers , to get what is now called a Bull Terrier , early Bulldogs , at time of bull baiting , bear baiting etc , ware almost identical conformation to a modern APBT ,, a lot of the history in book was written by show breeders ,
     
    david63 and Soze the killer like this.
  12. Box Bulldog

    Box Bulldog Top Dog

    What I meant to say is they cared what they bred to but didn't care so much as to what the dog was. For example if a guy bred pit dogs 100 years ago and got a chance to breed a bitch to lets say Frisco Sport are you not going to do the breeding to the 7xW because he is half bull terrier? I think not. I think american dogs are a mix of all the old pit dog breeds. That's why 100+ years ago there was way more variation in the breed. Some might look very terrier like similar to a jack russel, some might have heavy English bulldog traits. White dogs were far more common then than now could be from bull terrier blood who knows. And there was then what there is now paper hanging. If I am always coming out on top do I want others to no how my dog is actually bred? or how its bred on paper. And about the hound thing I am not the only person that believes some pit dogs may have hound in the mix. Reason? Hounds have great stamina,fast and are very athletic they may not be game in a APBT sort of way but they are very game in there own way. For a example of a hounds gameness the owner of the farm next to my Grandparents had a blue tic hound. This dog would chase and tree what ever was around and howl under the tree for days no food no water. Any dog with enough drive to sit on its prey for days with only its prey on its mind not a care about basic food and water I would call game. I have herd before it was greyhound types used in the mix who knows. This is turning into a fun topic.
     
    Soze the killer likes this.
  13. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    what do you mean hound , Fox hound type dogs ? I really don't understand how a pit bull man can think any real Bulldog man would breed to a hound , they lack the most important thing needed,,gameness , running 25 miles chasing a fox , the same dog could be mentally exhausted and out of wind in a battle , ungame breeds don't have good stamina in a battle , as for white , the colour was common before Bull terriers ,, a lot of old bulldog baiting prints show white or patched dogs , but I do agree they ware a lot more common in the past ,
     
    F.W.K., david63 and Soze the killer like this.
  14. Just seen this cant remember the dogs name to be exact but ill have a look and if i find its ped ill post a pic
     
  15. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    I don't think any Colby dog had any Bull terrier blood
     
  16. I might be wrong but i thought id seen it somewhere.
     
  17. oldguy

    oldguy CH Dog

  18. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Great pic :-O
    And you did not post it in the 'never seen photos' thread ? :((
    Well ... thank you :-B
     
  19. oldguy

    oldguy CH Dog

    Your welcome.
     
  20. 80BOWTIE

    80BOWTIE Big Dog

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